What do you (as a Catholic) think?


#1

Y’all might have seen this before but no one really answered it so I decided to make it a new thread.

Ok I want to get this straight…
Who Will Go To Heaven (if he/they died an unexpected death) ?
(Keep in mind that I know ONLY GOD can judge and your answer will not influence me, I am simply wondering what CATHLOICS think to gain knowledge.)
A) Someone who was baptized in the Catholic faith, but has long since forgotten the Lord
B) Someone (such as a Baptist) who believes in Believer’s Baptism, but has yet to be baptized
C) Both
D) Neither

Ok I am seeking Catholic opinion. I know, I know, you “know” that Catholic opinion is the truth, not “opinion.” Yet I think that Protestant “opinion” is the truth. Funny how that is.
Anyway, don’t be mad at me and don’t pity me unless you pity me the way you pity yourself, a fellow sinner.
God’s Peace~
Lisa


#2

Assuming there are no “death bed” conversions (yes I think even sudden unexpected death can have time for conversion), I would say the answer is B.

That is if B was faithful until death also. He would have what would be called Baptism by desire.

Is this straight enough?

Your sister in Christ
Maria


#3

Yes, that’s very straight. Thank you.
God’s Peace~
Lisa

PS- Thanks for referring to me as your sister in Christ. I hope that everyone here sees me as that as I see you as brothers and sisters in Christ.
:bounce:


#4

Only God knows fully our hearts and will be able to judge is the first thing to say.

A) - I’m asssuming you mean a Catholic who has got to at least adult age practising the faith. If they knew the truth, but rejected it, then they could be in trouble!

Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"321
CCC 837 - scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#I

But the Catholic may have rejected the Church for reasons known only to God such as incomplete knowledge, believed lies about the Church or have been wronged by the Church in some way.

B) Baptism of desire - CCC 1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.
scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#II

C) I can’t answer as they are mutually exclusive - forgotten the lord / believes in Baptism (Believers or otherwise) ???

D) God will judge according to their beliefs and actions

CCC 1260 - Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#II

Hope this helps.


#5

[quote=JesusFreak16]Yes, that’s very straight. Thank you.
God’s Peace~
Lisa

PS- Thanks for referring to me as your sister in Christ. I hope that everyone here sees me as that as I see you as brothers and sisters in Christ.
:bounce:
[/quote]

We do indeed see you as a sister in Christ.

CCC

"However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ;** they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272
:slight_smile: ** (My Bold)


#6

Yep, I agree with you.

God’s Peace~
Lisa


#7

You forgot one:

E) We have no way of knowing who will or will not go to heaven!

That by the way is the Catholic position. Are you aware that you continue to talk down to us (Catholics)? I only bring it up because you may not be aware. :slight_smile:


#8

[quote=MariaG]Assuming there are no “death bed” conversions (yes I think even sudden unexpected death can have time for conversion), I would say the answer is B.

That is if B was faithful until death also. He would have what would be called Baptism by desire.

Is this straight enough?

Your sister in Christ
Maria
[/quote]

I’m in agreement with Maria.
Another sister in Christ,
Annunciata:)


#9

Martino,
Thank you for metioning this… I was sort of getting the same impression.( Hope we are wrong) Annunciata:)


#10

don’t ask me, ask God, He knows, I don’t, haven’t noticed Him registered as a user of these forums yet.


#11

[quote=JesusFreak16]…
Ok I am seeking Catholic opinion. I know, I know, you “know” that Catholic opinion is the truth, not “opinion.” Yet I think that Protestant “opinion” is the truth. Funny how that is.

[/quote]

Actually, no… why would we consider an opinion, Catholic as it may be, as *the * Truth. It maybe truthful, but *the * Truth lies in the dogmatic declarations and infallible teachings, not opinions.


#12

The scenario question of who will go to heaven begs the question of what is our life beyond death be addressed.

If you have faith in God and a relationship with Jesus, then life beyond the grave is the true fullness of live in God.

For one who is baptized the question is: have they accepted the grace as a source of living in the light of Our Lord?

For one who has a baptism of desire, they are at the door and will be invited into the life of the Living God.

Praise Jesus for his tender Divine Mercy!

May you grow in your faith and love of Our Lord Jesus Christ!

Your brother in Christ,
Malo


#13

I’m just wondering how the protestant opinion can be the truth. There is no one protestant opinion on salvation, baptism or very much else. Are all these opinions the truth? If so, how can this be? Or is only the opinion of one denomination the truth? If so, since most denominations are sola scriptura in theory, how do we know which denomination holds the truth?

Even on baptism there are lots of Protestant opinions. Baptism is essential for salvation. Baptism is a symbol of salvation. Baptism is for believers only. Infants can/cannot be baptised. You’re baptised into the church/you’re fully in the church anyway. Baptism is by immersion only/pouring, sprinkling etc are fine. Some protestant groups do away with baptism altogether. These are all protestant opinions. Are they all the truth?

We can’t know which opinion is correct JUST from our personal “Spirit led” Bible interpretation otherwise each sola scriptura denomination would by necessity hold to exactly the same doctrine. So what is the extra authority that tells each denomination that it is correct?

Questions being asked by someone who has been in quite a few protestant denominations, all sola scriptura, all disagreeing on points of doctrine. Someone now firmly on the road to catholicism - but not ready to explain catholic doctrine just yet.

Blessings and hopes that someone will be caused to think, even if no answer will influence jesusfreak16 (fond memories of the Jesus Army rendition of the DC Talk song at high volume in Trafalgar Square!)

Asteroid


#14

[quote=asteroid]I’m just wondering how the protestant opinion can be the truth. There is no one protestant opinion on salvation, baptism or very much else. Are all these opinions the truth? If so, how can this be? Or is only the opinion of one denomination the truth? If so, since most denominations are sola scriptura in theory, how do we know which denomination holds the truth?

Even on baptism there are lots of Protestant opinions. Baptism is essential for salvation. Baptism is a symbol of salvation. Baptism is for believers only. Infants can/cannot be baptised. You’re baptised into the church/you’re fully in the church anyway. Baptism is by immersion only/pouring, sprinkling etc are fine. Some protestant groups do away with baptism altogether. These are all protestant opinions. Are they all the truth?

We can’t know which opinion is correct JUST from our personal “Spirit led” Bible interpretation otherwise each sola scriptura denomination would by necessity hold to exactly the same doctrine. So what is the extra authority that tells each denomination that it is correct?

Questions being asked by someone who has been in quite a few protestant denominations, all sola scriptura, all disagreeing on points of doctrine. Someone now firmly on the road to catholicism - but not ready to explain catholic doctrine just yet.

Blessings and hopes that someone will be caused to think, even if no answer will influence jesusfreak16 (fond memories of the Jesus Army rendition of the DC Talk song at high volume in Trafalgar Square!)

Asteroid
[/quote]

Truth cannot contradict Truth! “Veritas Vincit!”


#15

[quote=mrS4ntA]Truth cannot contradict Truth! “Veritas Vincit!”
[/quote]

Agreed. Therefore… lots of protestant opinions cannot be truth.

(most questions asked were rhetorical, designed to show that even those who claim sola scriptura doctrine can’t keep to sola scriptura doctrine)


#16

[quote=puzzleannie]don’t ask me, ask God, He knows, I don’t, haven’t noticed Him registered as a user of these forums yet.
[/quote]

he actually is registered under his favorite football team’s name :stuck_out_tongue: . obviously God is a bengal fan…look at how much he allows his own people (the israelites) to suffer and constantly be conquered. he allows this because he will show his power to the world through them and he will show his power to the nfl when (someday soon i hope) he raises the bengals to world champions. (sorry for the complete off topic rant, i am feeling a little slap happy today).


#17

A) Someone who was baptized in the Catholic faith, but has long since forgotten the Lord
B) Someone (such as a Baptist) who believes in Believer’s Baptism, but has yet to be baptized
C) Both
D) Neither

Most likely D

The person who was Baptized recieved Salvic Grace but most likely lost it to mortal sin.

The person who was never Baptized never recieved the Salvic Grace inherent to Baptism. A Baptism of Desire does not occur if the believer had the opportunity to recieve the Sacrament, but chose not to.

The gate is narrow folks, we have to remember that at all times.


#18

Peace be with you all,

I know where salvation “is” but I do not know where it “is not”. I pray that the Lord’s Mercy is greater than our expectations, interpretations and conjecture. Amen.

Peace, Love and Blessings,


#19

[quote=JesusFreak16]…A) Someone who was baptized in the Catholic faith, but has long since forgotten the Lord
B) Someone (such as a Baptist) who believes in Believer’s Baptism, but has yet to be baptized
C) Both
D) Neither…
[/quote]

Lisa,

This question appears to be an ambush of sorts. We know only Jesus judges as you said but none of the answers you inked out included “Faith”. Perhaps a more limited question and answer such as does one need “Faith” or “faith in Jesus alone as your personnal Lord and saviour”?


#20

First, we are players, not the Referee.

Protestants spend way to much time, energy and spiritual gas trying to sort out who is and is not counted among the elect.

To be a baptised Christian or a person who loves Christ and desires baptism, is to be counted among the redeemed, not the elect.

Whether we finish the race, as Paul said, is going to be determined by private conversation between God and the soul immediately after death and God will do all the taking. At the Great Judgement, all secrets will be on the table and everyones work will be brought to light.

That should humble us. All this breeze about who is saved, who is not, who is a carnal Christian, is mostly swamp gas. Paddle your own canoe, walk humbly with your God and forgive injuries from both outright enemies and the slights of friends.

That said, I am humbled by the fact that baptism, as Sacrament instituted by Christ, is not, contrary to our friends of the Puritan and Baptist traditions, a matter of indifference.

Except ye be born again OF WATER AND…

The Phillipian jailor wanted everyone in his family baptised immediately!

Children, likely, included. They do not get to 'Choose for Themselves". They are called from infancy by the deposit of Faith of their parents and they are Christian. Whether the graces are effective depends on how the family and Church live the Gospel before them and catechize them.

The Ethiopian Eunuch pleaded for Phillip to baptise him as soon as he saw water and as soon as the baptism was complete Phillip was carried away. This is a clear sign that some thing actually happens at the point of baptism.


We do not ‘baptize’ ourselves, but for the sacrament to be fruitful, we must cooperate with grace.

For the protestant concern about Gods sovereignty, your take, if you think about it puts you in charge and makes God a kind of waiter you comp with ceremonial tips.

If sacraments are just obedient memorials, are they not a form of Godliness that denies the power there of?

I offer these with respect. I love my dear Christ loving baptist friends, and I love the fact that you want to follow the Christly way of the early Church.

In time you will realize that when you look at core values, the early Church was more like Catholicism than bible chapel fundamentalism.

Yours in the love of Jesus

Steve


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