What do YOU think?

Dear Brethren in Christ,

Do you think that Catholics are unnecessarly obstinate? Too set in our ways:)

God Bless you,
Patrick

If so, we Lutherans know where our stubborness came from!

As someone who was formerly (and still am in many ways :wink: ) an obstinate Jew (you remember, those “stiff-necked people” :D), let me answer your question with one or two of my own:

  1. Can you be more precise in your definition of “obstinate”?
  2. How much obstinance is necessary, and for what?
  3. At what point does obstinance become “un”-necessary?
  4. Which ways are we too set in?

Guess that’s enough for starters…;).

No! Definately not! And I’m not being moved on this point!:smiley:

If anything I think your average American Catholic is far too compliant with our secular American culture. One case in point, U of Notre Dame.

I’d tend to agree with that, but is that what the OP was referring to? And, there are a LOT more Catholics than just us-ums and we-ums here in the good ol’ U.S. of A. :slight_smile:

Fair enough, but I think the same holds true for most Catholics in most places (and most times as well).

To answer your questions, I would say no. We Catholics are not obstinate nor are we set in our ways.

The Catholic Church alone has the fullness of truth because the Catholic Church was founded by Christ upon Peter, the Rock. We hold to the complete Apostolic Faith as handed down to us. Holding to the One True Faith does not mean that we are obstinate; it means that we are faithful to the truth.

This may sound imperialistic to some, but it is not. Catholics are not imperialists. We acknowledge that elements of truth exist outside of the Catholic Church and we are very respectful towards our separated brethren. But we cannot water down the faith in false ecumenical efforts. I hope other Christian denominations respect our beliefs and our right to hold on to them, just as we respect theirs.

=MichaelinMD;11673267]As someone who was formerly (and still am in many ways :wink: ) an obstinate Jew (you remember, those “stiff-necked people” :D), let me answer your question with one or two of my own:

  1. Can you be more precise in your definition of “obstinate”?

[quote]

One can only try: How about bull-headed W/O reason?

[quote]2. How much obstinance is necessary, and for what?

[/quote]

I don;t know:) Is “less” better than “more?”

  1. At what point does obstinance become “un”-necessary?

When is has “no-cause” but an effect

  1. Which ways are we too set in?

All, or mostly all, or just some beliefs and practices:thumbsup:

Guess that’s enough for starters…;).

[/quote]

=PietroPaolo;11673347]If anything I think your average American Catholic is far too compliant with our secular American culture. One case in point, U of Notre Dame.

OOCH! That hurt:D

=Dempsey1919;11673420]To answer your questions, I would say no. We Catholics are not obstinate nor are we set in our ways.

The Catholic Church alone has the fullness of truth because the Catholic Church was founded by Christ upon Peter, the Rock. We hold to the complete Apostolic Faith as handed down to us. Holding to the One True Faith does not mean that we are obstinate; it means that we are faithful to the truth.

This may sound imperialistic to some, but it is not. Catholics are not imperialists. We acknowledge that elements of truth exist outside of the Catholic Church and we are very respectful towards our separated brethren. But we cannot water down the faith in false ecumenical efforts. I hope other Christian denominations respect our beliefs and our right to hold on to them, just as we respect theirs.

Nicely done. Thank you!

BUT how many agree with this seems to be my question:shrug:

No more than any other person committed to their faith tradition.

Not really sure what to make of all that…seems pretty vague.:shrug:
[/quote]

I agree with Dempsey1919:thumbsup:

Originally Posted by PJM
Dear Brethren in Christ,

Do you think that Catholics are unnecessarly obstinate? Too set in our ways

THIS is perhaps the most un-derailable thread ever! I might think anything and print it!

The language of the clarification gives unlimited lattitude as well - if one wants to take it. And I DO! :smiley:

HUMOROUS TAKES:

No. Obstinate is never me - it’s the other people.
Catholics being obstinate? What about? Unrelenting changes at ever higher speeds?

LESS humorous takes:

Is there then a necessarily obstinate position that can be named? Given that “obstinate” is usually equated with “stubborn” and by tone “stubbornly WRONG!” The words for defending the RIGHT without compromise would be something like “unswerving devotion” (which is a quite different sentiment - and result). :nerd:

***Considering such factors that have taken place in my lifetime as:


  • dramatic changes in the mass and worship,

  • being a bit less like the Orthodox Church and more like (the less unified/more diverse) Protestant Churches culturally since Vatican II

  • a seeming uber-tolerance of doctrinal or “popular morality” novelties - even regarding the most well defined doctrines of the Church (per any kind of discipline) at times …

I think … ** being* too unnecessarily libertine*** comes closer to the mark of what “the Church’s” bigger problem is than standing firm regarding established moral truths.

lib·er·tine
ˈlibərˌtēn/
noun
1.
a person, esp. a man, who behaves without moral principles or a sense of responsibility, esp. in sexual matters.
synonyms: philanderer, playboy, rake, roué, Don Juan, Lothario, Casanova, Romeo; More
2.
a person who rejects accepted opinions in matters of religion; a freethinker.
adjective
adjective: libertine
1.
characterized by a disregard of morality, esp. in sexual matters.
“his more libertine impulses”
2.
freethinking in matters of religion.

google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=libertine+definition&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

"Catholics" are all over the lot … if statistics can be believed.

Also, if the statistics are true that MOST Catholics in the US actually voted for the most pro-abortion Presidential Candidate in our country’s history TWICE (against at least nominally pro-life candidates) … then I THINK *those Catholics are too obstinate in dedicating their power more on behalf of what is stylish at the time * - or their political party “of choice” - than if they had at least abstained from affirming the injustice of abortion.

reuters.com/article/2012/11/08/us-usa-campaign-religion-idUSBRE8A71M420121108

Catholics - the country’s largest religious group with one-quarter of the population - have supported the winner of the popular vote in every (US Presidential) election since 1972.

In my (Catholic) family I’ve even had my pro-life views challenged by relatives who start the argument(s) that I should consider such (irrelevant to me “non-moral”) factors as:

  • which party ran more Catholics for President; :shrug: or

  • how good Unions were in the 1930s and '40s :confused:; or

  • the “fact” that even some priests, Catholic University professors and/or Bishops are registered voters in that party (and presumably vote that way - despite the party’s pro-abortion planks in the platform since 1984) … so so can YOU (me) !?

Usually when I read something like “Catholics are too obstinate” I think first of the obedient Catholics who are trying to live a holy life … and perhaps as a side-effect “making people” around them feel guilty because of that.

Trying to “enter through the narrow door …” Jesus speaks about (and MAKING it!) just MAY be more important than being perceived as being unprogressive.

Now if what the OP had in mind was those folks who kick up at *** any change*** the Church makes as a chance to rebel in THAT direction - I’ve seen that too. And I’d been a part of a Catholic young adult ministry that desperately needed to change its (business) approach to survive - but was hampered by traditionalists who preferred an “excellence or nothing” approach to doing what we could and continuing to evangelize under “less than perfect” conditions. :frowning:

Obstinacy can happen - and to the detriment of the Church - even when the seeming virtues of “tradition” or “excellence” are invoked.

I know this makes me look like I’m on all sides of the issue to some. But I listed the problems in my “I THINK” order of priority per the present challenges the Church faces.

=CaptFun;11674440]THIS is perhaps the most un-derailable thread ever! I might think anything and print it!

The language of the clarification gives unlimited lattitude as well - if one wants to take it. And I DO! :smiley:

HUMOROUS TAKES:

No. Obstinate is never me - it’s the other people.
Catholics being obstinate? What about? Unrelenting changes at ever higher speeds?

LESS humorous takes:

Is there then a necessarily obstinate position that can be named? Given that “obstinate” is usually equated with “stubborn” and by tone “stubbornly WRONG!” The words for defending the RIGHT without compromise would be something like “unswerving devotion” (which is a quite different sentiment - and result). :nerd:

***Considering such factors that have taken place in my lifetime as:


  • dramatic changes in the mass and worship,
  • being a bit less like the Orthodox Church and more like (the less unified/more diverse) Protestant Churches culturally since Vatican II
  • a seeming uber-tolerance of doctrinal or “popular morality” novelties - even regarding the most well defined doctrines of the Church (per any kind of discipline) at times …

I think … ** being* too unnecessarily libertine*** comes closer to the mark of what “the Church’s” bigger problem is than standing firm regarding established moral truths.

"Catholics" are all over the lot … if statistics can be believed.

Also, if the statistics are true that MOST Catholics in the US actually voted for the most pro-abortion Presidential Candidate in our country’s history TWICE (against at least nominally pro-life candidates) … then I THINK those Catholics are too obstinate in dedicating their power more on behalf of what is stylish at the time - or their political party “of choice” - than if they had at least abstained from affirming the injustice of abortion.

reuters.com/article/2012/11/08/us-usa-campaign-religion-idUSBRE8A71M420121108

In my (Catholic) family I’ve even had my pro-life views challenged by relatives who start the argument(s) that I should consider such (irrelevant to me “non-moral”) factors as:

  • which party ran more Catholics for President; :shrug: or
  • how good Unions were in the 1930s and '40s :confused:; or
  • the “fact” that even some priests, Catholic University professors and/or Bishops are registered voters in that party (and presumably vote that way - despite the party’s pro-abortion planks in the platform since 1984) … so so can YOU (me) !?

Usually when I read something like “Catholics are too obstinate” I think first of the obedient Catholics who are trying to live a holy life … and perhaps as a side-effect “making people” around them feel guilty because of that.

Trying to “enter through the narrow door …” Jesus speaks about (and MAKING it!) just MAY be more important than being perceived as being unprogressive.

Now if what the OP had in mind was those folks who kick up at *** any change*** the Church makes as a chance to rebel in THAT direction - I’ve seen that too. And I’d been a part of a Catholic young adult ministry that desperately needed to change its (business) approach to survive - but was hampered by traditionalists who preferred an “excellence or nothing” approach to doing what we could and continuing to evangelize under “less than perfect” conditions. :frowning:

Obstinacy can happen - and to the detriment of the Church - even when the seeming virtues of “tradition” or “excellence” are invoked.

I know this makes me look like I’m on all sides of the issue to some. But I listed the problems in my “I THINK” order of priority per the present challenges the Church faces.

Thank you so much for all the effort you put into this.:slight_smile:

God Bless you,
patrick

Yes it is called being brainwashed.

You do know that Lutherans are disgruntled Catholics, right? :smiley:

No, I wish you guys were MORE obstinate. I would be overjoyed it more Catholics actually believed and obeyed the dictates of their church.

That’s a 2-way street…

[bibledrb]Matthew 7:5[/bibledrb]

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