What exactly did Jesus save us from?

I don’t know right now if we are agreeing or not agreeing.

The creed says hell. You say it is Abraham’s Bosom. Fine. This would be your name for the righteous dead…correct? Because you don’t think he descended into the hell of the damned…correct? So why are we disagreeing? :confused:

Yes, the place of the righteous dead. No, not the hell of the damned.

I don’t know, can you imagine that “hell” in the creed refers to the rightous dead?

Hi, Daddy’s Girl!
Yes! It was Jesus death on the Cross that took away our sins:

6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:6-8)

…while, His Resurrection and Ascension into Heaven Granted us access to the Father, Who is in Heaven:

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. (Romans 5:9-11)

And…all the millions or billions of people who lived good, honest, loving lives and died before Jesus arrived…they did not get to heaven? (at least, not until Jesus arrived?).

I think you’ve missed the part about Jesus’ atonement for sin (due to text limit I will select only certain parts of the quote:

31 (…) If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 (…) It is God who justifies… 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?.. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:31-39)

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive,[d] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. (1 St. Peter 3:18-20)

So you see, God’s been there and done that! Jesus died for sin–all sin: past, present, future (no that does not mean that we can sin till we die like rebels without a cause). God is Omnipotent. He exists in NOW (Yahweh: I AM). Salvation is God’s Free Gift for all–since, as you’ve pointed out, millions died prior to the Incarnation of the Word, God made a concession for them (as St. Peter explained)–so we need not worry about securing their Salvation for them, Jesus already saw to that!

Why would God wait so long to do this? Why keep people in hell or purgatory for so long and wait so long before sending Jesus here to suffer, die, come back to life…so that people can then possibly get to heaven?

Since God is Omnipotent and Omniscient, He knows why… you and I, well we can hardly tell the time of day sometimes, right?

So…all this…just because Adam and Eve ate the fruit?

…yeah, not! The key you are missing is: disobedience; Adam and Eve took the word of the creature instead of the Creator and obeyed the creature rather than the Creator, thusly, rejecting God’s Authority over them.

People here often say that a person can be saved at the last minute no matter what life they led before that, if they embrace/call out to God.

Is that true or not?

In the realm of possibilities all things are possible. Yet, though the Holy Spirit is able to intercede in our behalf, I would not wager much on final moments’ repentance and enlightenment–that is, a person who’s whole life have been spent rejecting God’s Authority (in my opinion) has a snowball change in Hell in making a true surrender and repentance. Remember, it is not just claiming to Believe but actually Believing God and in God; it is not just asking for Salvation but accepting everything that goes with it (God’s Authority, Power, Mercy, and Grace).

Maran atha!

Angel

Hi, Granny!
I think you are referring to what the Jews call Sheol–though I have not researched it, I believe that that could be the origin of what we Catholic have termed: Purgatory.

Though I do not mean to disagree, I cannot support your statement about the “peaceful knowledge that Jesus would descend to them” since Jesus descended not to rescue the Believers but all who had died prior to His Incarnation:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. (1 St. Peter 3:18-20)

However, those who actually did maintain Fellowship with God were made aware of Jesus’ Coming so they may have had awaited with the expectations that you’ve described.

Maran atha!

Angel

I think that we are confusing the issue: Sheol is not just a place for the righteous dead.:

She’ol (/ˈʃiːoʊl/ SHEE-ohl or /ˈʃiːəl/ SHEE-əl; Hebrew שְׁאוֹל Šʾôl), in the Hebrew Bible, is a place of darkness to which all the dead go, both the righteous and the unrighteous, regardless of the moral choices made in life, a place of stillness and darkness cut off from life and from the Hebrew God.[1] (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol)

The bosom of Abraham is a place within Sheol:

Bosom of Abraham" refers to the place of comfort in the Biblical Sheol (or Hades in the Greek Septuagint version of the Hebrew scriptures from around 200 BC, and therefore so described in the New Testament)[1] where the righteous dead await Judgment Day. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosom_of_Abraham)

I understand (EWTN–Father Mitch Pacua) that during translation the word “hell” was termed for both Sheol (the place of rest/waiting) and Gehenna (refered to by Jesus as hell):

In Jewish Rabbinic literature, and Christian and Islamic scripture, Gehenna is a destination of the wicked.[3] This is different from the more neutral Sheol/Hades, the abode of the dead, although the King James Version of the Bible usually translates both with the Anglo-Saxon word Hell. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna)

…so the Creed is right (1 St. Peter 3) but the term, though actively used, is wrong–yet, Sheol does not have a clear/direct translation (I imagine) so we are stuck with “hell.” :nerd::shrug::hmmm:

Maran atha!

Angel

Believers were saved from the just wrath of God.

Romans 5:9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 1:9 … and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him

Propitiation means to appease the wrath of God

1 John 4:10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

Well, if you think He descended into Abraham’s Bosom, you are imagining He descended to the place for the righteous dead…correct?

Yes. Following Jesus’ resurrection, “Abraham’s Bosom” is no longer open for business; therefore, the only context in which we use the word ‘hell’ is for the place of eternal damnation. Not so in earlier days, in which the word might have been used in many contexts. So, while it is confusing, it’s not inaccurate to say that “Jesus descended to hell”, although it is inaccurate to presume that this means “the hell of the eternally damned.”

:shrug:

Agree!:thumbsup:

So if someone was to ask us about this “hell” in the creed, we would say, at that time he descended into a place sometimes referred to as Abraham’s Bosom where the righteous dead were and He took them with Him into Heaven. Correct?

The Catechism summarizes with:

637 In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven’s gates for the just who had gone before him.

I think “realm of the dead” is a most appropriate term here. It best describes the abyss, Sheol, hell- that heretofore unknown or little understood destination for those who die. In general, Jesus came to reveal the full knowledge of God to the living and the dead-so that a choice can be made.

Catholic Encyclopedia explained it:

Whatever name may be used in apocryphal Jewish literature to designate the abode of the departed just, the implication generally is
[LIST]
*]that their condition is one of happiness,
*]that it is temporary, and
*]that it is to be replaced by a condition of final and permanent bliss when the Messianic Kingdom is established.
[/LIST] …
As a result of the Fall, Heaven was closed against men. Actual possession of the beatific vision was postponed, even for those already purified from sin, until the Redemption should have been historically completed by Christ’s visible ascendancy into Heaven. Consequently, the just who had lived under the Old Dispensation, and who, either at death or after a course of purgatorial discipline, had attained the perfect holiness required for entrance into glory, were obliged to await the coming of the Incarnate Son of God and the full accomplishment of His visible earthly mission. Meanwhile they were “in prison,” as St. Peter says; but, as Christ’s own words to the penitent thief and in the parable of Lazarus clearly imply, their condition was one of happiness, notwithstanding the postponement of the higher bliss to which they looked forward. …

Toner, P. (1910). Limbo. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company.
newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm

Heaven isn’t owed to anyone.

No one gets to stand before the Godhead and demand, “Hey! I was a good person. Let me in now.”

When you compare the infinite majesty and goodness of the Godhead, no one is “good”. We’re all just different degrees of “not bad”.

QUOTE=Ben Sinner;13931574

Could anyone elaborate more on how Jesus is our savior?

Hey Ben.

I’ve heard it put this way before:

Moses led the people out of slavery in Egypt. He “saved” them FROM Egyptian slavery…AND he also “saved” them FOR the promised land that was promised to Abraham. He saved them FROM something and FOR something. (in a sense… because it was really God who did all of the heavy lifting :))

Jesus has been called the New Moses, I think. (That could be a different discussion, I suppose). As the New Moses He saves us FROM slavery, too…our slavery to sin…AND He also saves us FOR the true promised land of Heaven. He saves us FROM something and FOR something.

Jesus did this through His passion, death and resurrection.

God bless.

:thumbsup:

He came to save us from the effects of sin I guess. Both the effect of it in our daily lives and from the end result. He came that we might “have life and have it to the full”, and “the wages of sin is death”.

Jesus achieved this by his life death and resurrection, because of the pure infinite value of it by offering it to his Father as the Son and second person of the Trinity.

We participate in this daily by our faith in it and it’s effect are eternal if we persevere to the end and are saved.

Heaven was closed. He saved us from this closure by making heaven available to us thru his death and suffering.

The mystery is … why death and suffering? Jesus spoke with St. Catherine of Siena about this very choice because she asked why Jesus didn’t choose some other way. And she was told that he chose this way because this way would show his greatest love for us and would have the greatest hope of moving the hardest of hearts. It would have a greater power of saving more souls.

Saved us from sin …from death -hell… and gave us true life!

They were not “completely content” - they were in the limbo of the Fathers… sheol… …which is NOT heaven…not their fulfillment and overflowing joy!

Mary was sinless - because of Jesus’s death and resurrection! The Immaculate Conception is* from* that paschal mystery (God is outside of time).

Yes today persons are born with original sin. And yes many live in mortal sin. They are though called to life - called to faith and repentance - called to life.

Original sin and personal sin gets removed by Baptism (again the death and resurrection of Christ) -and they then are by faith and baptism a “new creation” “sons in the Son” indeed “saints”, temples of the Holy Spirit…etc

They are not “sinful by nature” but now “in grace” in “true life”.

(this is true even when venial sins continue to be committed in life - for they cannot normally be entirely avoided).

They have received the Holy Spirit as life here already…as a down payment and promise of the fullness of life to come!

And they look forward to that life in Heaven and then the Resurrection!

True life!

Jesus saves you from damnation.

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