What happens to Church if the Pope and Vatican are exhiled and leveled?

I just saw a post about the Mormon Tabernacle Temple being build in the Vatican’s backyard. This is a rationale question in my opinion simply knowing history. What would happen to the Church is the Vatican was no longer allowed to exist? Italy is not exactly a stable place historically. According to what I’ve read in the news most Italians seem morally corrupt.

I’m personally not worried about it, but it does make me wonder a bit knowing historical times when a pope dis not reside in Rome. What if religion became outlawed, punishable by imprisonment? Kind of extreme, but look at China. Anyone with any takes?:shrug:

As I understand it, the Vatican State is an independent nation. If religion became outlawed in Italy, it would not affect the laws in the Vatican State.

If, however, Italy were to declare war on the Vatican State and attack it, that would be another matter. I imagine their allies would come to their aid.

I also think many, many devout Catholics and other good people in Italy would take exception to your statement that, “most Italians seem morally corrupt.” “Some” most likely are, as are “some” Americans, some Brits, some Mexicans, etc. Remember the news media doesn’t report (to any great measure), the morally upright, but generally less newsworthy among us in whatever nation we reside.

If the Catholic Church were persecuted in Italy, the Pope would take up residence elsewhere until the crisis passed. Historically, there was about a century when the popes lived in France, so this would not be unprecedented.

If the reigning Pope died as a result of the persecution, the cardinals of the world would elect a new Pope. The Church would go on.

If somehow, the Church became persecuted everywhere, the Church Hierarchy would go into hiding, but the Church would still go on. It has to, as it is Christ’s only BODY in this world.

ICXC NIKA

In the early days the Church and all Christians were persecuted - the average papacy made it about 10-15 years before Martyrdom. The Church went on. And they did not even have great things like internet and telephones.

In the 9th and 10th Centuries the papacy was in a very difficult position. Over a couple of hundred years there were several papacies that lasted only months. There were double elections, exiles, murders, etc. Yet the Church survived.

The Holy Spirit finds ways to keep working through priests, abbots, monks and lay people who love Christ and will cleans the Body to be the “Spotless bride of Christ”.

Thanks, guys. As far as insulting Italians, it would easily be said the same for Americans, British, or all of Western civilization in general. I’ve read enough recently to be surprised to find my statement to be true unfortunately. It’s everywhere. No offense to the nation or the people. I say the same thing about American’s and I’m a veteran and proud of it.

I was just having one of those moments of “what if”. I could carry this further by asking why can’t the Church just move the home of Peter permanently? Is it a discipline, doctrine, man tradition or related to sacred tradition? Today’s readings Rv 11:4-12 surprise me using the term “two olive trees”. That seems to define the Eastern Church and the Western Church. Gotta do some research and ask my pastor about that one. He hates my questions I think. I guess they are too difficult to answer or to stupid to answer. LOL Edited to clarify that my questions are too stupid to answer.

wouldn’t the swiss guard come to fight? the Swiss guard defend the pope. Although I don’t know how many people in the SG there are.

If war were ever declared on the Vatican I imagine many devout countries would come to the help. like Poland, Mexico, South America, Ireland, Portugal, and lotsa Rhode Islanders in the US, lol…

The Pope is the bishop of Rome. This goes all the way back to Saint Peter, who died there in AD64, and whose tomb is under the Vatican. As Bishop of Rome, His Holiness has to live there (although he could, of course, leave temporarily). This became an issue raised by Saint Catherine of Siena during the years the Papacy was relocated in France.

And even if the Papacy could be withdrawn from Rome; what other locale would be any better? No other nation would give to the Church the political accommodation that Italy has in creating Vatican City. And no other nation would be intrinsically more secure for the Church than Italy. Persecution could take place anywhere.

ICXC NIKA

Depending on where the attack originated; if, for example, from an anticlerical revolution in Italy, no other country’s forces could arrive in time to make a difference.

Well, much as ‘what if?’ questions may be an interesting diversion, the idea that Italians would do anything to damage the tourist industry is a bit silly. :slight_smile:

In 1870 under the reign of Pope Pius IX, this question was not just questioned but also answered. The Papal States which at one time held a good portion of the central Italian Peninsula, had fallen. However, rewind about ten years. A call to arms was made, the bells of Churches rang and the bugles called. The respond to this call were men of Ireland, Mexico, the Netherlands, Italy, France, England, the United States, and plenty others. These men became the Papal Zouaves, combined with the Swiss Guards, the Noble Guards, the Palatine Guards, and I believe the Corsican Guards, these made up the Papal Army - All the Pope’s Men.

Although the temporal power of the Pope fell for almost 50 years or so, the spirit and courage of the men that fought under the Golden Keys lived on. It still lives on today, in the hearts of every Catholic willing to defend, fight, kill, and die for the Holy Father. If any an army were to tread on the sacred ground of Saint Peter’s, the Papal Zouaves would again accept the call to arms.

Nations like China can take the lives, the churches, the priests, the nuns, the brothers and the rest of them, but they cannot take the Catholicism away from us. No one can. To quote William Wallace, proper, “They can take our lives, but they can never take our freedom” of religion.

Long live the Pope.

~ Pius :knight1:

Another possibility would be that the Pope himself feels powerfully drawn to the Hebraic Roots of the Catholic Faith. What will happen when the Jewish people rebuild their Third Temple and begin to offer sacrifices therein? All of us will be asking questions that we had not asked before.

Will the reigning Pope decide to observe the Festival of Tabernacles in Jerusalem that year or wait until a little later?

The first century church was divided over the question of circumcision because the majority of Catholics for the first few decades, were Jewish.

Acts Of Apostles 21:20

But they hearing it, glorified God, and said to him: Thou seest, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews that have believed: and they are all zealous for the law.

In one of his books Sid Roth gives the statistic that there may have been as many as 400,000 Messianic Jews at the time of the Bar Kochba rebellion. James Hider’s article A Tragic Misunderstanding indicates that the Palestinian people may be descended to an enormous extent from the first and second century Messianic Jewish community, who, because they did not join in the Bar Kochba rebellion WERE NOT expelled from the land of Judaea as it was then called.

women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/the_way_we_live/article5504478.ece

A small group of Jews and Arabs are using an old theory and new genetic research to redefine - and, hopefully, one day to end - the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.James Hider In a bustling fish restaurant in Jaffa, the ancient sea port just south of Tel Aviv, an Israeli Jewish man tries to convince the eatery’s Arab owner that everything he has ever thought about his Palestinian heritage is wrong - that the conflict that has killed so many and which is claiming hundreds more right now in Gaza - has been nothing more than a tragic case of mistaken identity. Khamis Aboulafia, a well-known figure in the Israeli Arab community, listens politely as Tsvi Misinai, a retired computer expert and pioneer of Israel’s IT sector, reveals the burning vision that has consumed him for years. He believes that the Palestinians with whom Israel is at war are, in fact, descendants of Jews who stayed on the land when the Roman legions sent most of their countrymen into exile 2,000 years ago.

When he hears that he may be a long-lost relation of a Jew, rather than of Arab stock, Aboulafia - an educated man who speaks Hebrew as fluently as Arabic - does not ask his guest to leave. Instead, he nods slowly. “Why am I willing to accept the idea?” he says. “Because all of the other ideas have fallen down.”

the Vatican State doesn’t have any mutual defense treaties?

I guess my question is, what would happen if the Pope wanted to live in Jerusalem because so many prophecies were being fulfilled.

Luke 24:25

Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken

: (Rabbi Yahushua/Jesus)

John 10:35

If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken

; (Rabbi Jesus/Yahushua)

John 19:36

For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.

Maybe not but the way in which President Reagan cooperated and worked with Pope John Paul II as well as then Cardinal Ratzinger, in the events that led up to the fall of the Iron Curtain, in my opinion was nothing less than inspired, not to mention brilliant!

Can’t imagine that either Israel or the Palestinian National Authority would allow it.

The Pope is the bishop of Rome. He cannot just pack up and relocate to Israel any more than the Archbishop of L.A. can just decide that he’d rather live in San Francisco.

As a non-Jew, the building of the Temple wouldn’t offer much to a Catholic Pope anyhow. One needs to be a Jew to offer sacrifice there. (And the waiting line to do so, as well as for flights to Tel Aviv, would stretch around the world.)

I imagine that the dovetailing of Biblical prophecies at Jerusalem would require the Pope’s active ministry right where he is, in the Vatican, as a peacemaker. The Temple cannot be rebuilt without igniting World War 3. The conflict between Jews and Arabs is probably physically insoluble (how do you placate 2 groups of people who want the same square mileage?) and the USA’s political leverage is very limited; the Vatican, as it did in the 1980s facing the CCCP, has a uniquely international intercessorship.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA.

Good points GEddie: There is a pretty amazing plan being put forward that is sure worth praying about. I read the 18 page version available under the link Digest.
www.bermigo.com

And why would the Pope, let alone any Catholic, what to offer the imperfect sacrifice of the temple. After all Christ was/is the perfect sacrifice, they only one that leads to salvation. The Jewish sacrifice of the temple pales in comparison and does not lead to salvation unless one follows it to Christ.

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