What have we paid for with Palestinian handouts?

I’ve believed for a very long time that the Arab states don’t so much care for the Palestinians as they hate both Israel and Western Democracies. Their lack of any real assistance to build a hopeful and forward looking state in Palestine only demonstrates that point. But I wonder, by pouring money into Palestine have we really been any more helpful?

Here’s an interesting article:

jewishworldreview.com/0905/west091605.php3

What should we have done differently? What could we have done differently?

Dan L

Well I think for a start Israel should be made to stick to international law and their agreements with the Palestinians.

E.g.?

Dan L

[quote=FightingFat]Well I think for a start Israel should be made to stick to international law and their agreements with the Palestinians.
[/quote]

Israel should get out of the West Bank right after England leaves Northern Ireland. I find it quite ironic how some of the pro-islamist Brits on this board have no comment on the occupation in thier own back yard.

[quote=Lurch104]Israel should get out of the West Bank right after England leaves Northern Ireland. I find it quite ironic how some of the pro-islamist Brits on this board have no comment on the occupation in thier own back yard.
[/quote]

I wouldn’t have any particular objection to Britain pulling out of Northern Ireland and reunification happening. We couldn’t do it immediately though, as there would almost certainly be civil war. I’d be happy for us to work in that direction as quickly as possible.

I dunno quite what you’re implying by ‘pro-Islamist’ here, but I don’t like occupations of any sort.

There is a difference though - there isn’t a requirement under international treaties and law for Britain to get out of NI. There is a requirement under Resolution 242 for Israel to get out of the West Bank. Regrettably, UN Security Council resolutions are only selectively enforced.

Mike

Matt25, Fighting Fat, Walstan, et al seem to defend Islam at every turn.

If Israel were occupying Northern Ireland, you had better believe that there would be a resolution to get them out. Apparently England (Britain if you prefer) is immune. The British really seem to have “plank in the eye” syndrome with regard to occupation.

So tell me, UN resolutions aside, why is it right for Britain to be in NI, but Israel not to be in the West Bank?

[quote=Lurch104]Matt25, Fighting Fat, Walstan, et al seem to defend Islam at every turn.
[/quote]

I’m not convinced they do, but anyway I’m not them, I’ll let them speak for themselves.

If Israel were occupying Northern Ireland, you had better believe that there would be a resolution to get them out.

If they had done it since the founding of the UN, most likely. But the British in NI has been going on for at least 350 years. A lot of it is down to Cromwell.

Apparently England (Britain if you prefer)

Given that it is accurate, I do prefer, yes :slight_smile: My passport says ‘British’, not ‘English’.

is immune. The British really seem to have “plank in the eye” syndrome with regard to occupation.

A number of British people are for the reunification of Ireland. In the days of the IRA though it was a difficult position to publicly hold. People who did say that were accusing of ‘being with the terrorists’ (sound familiar?)

So tell me, UN resolutions aside, why is it right for Britain to be in NI, but Israel not to be in the West Bank?

While I don’t like to admit this especially, occupations gain legitimacy over time. The West Bank is still less than 40 years ago. The British have been in Northern Ireland for a lot longer than Americans have been ‘occupying’ Native American lands, if you want to start viewing it like that. We all have planks in our eyes.

Mike

I suppose there is some comparison between the hypocrisy of Britain and the hypocrisy of Israel but that is really a detour away from the topic. I have no idea if Israel pulled out of all of the so-called Palestinian territory would improve the life of Palestinians or Israelis or not.

What I am interested in is a discussion of whether or not we have helped the Palestinians at all by pouring money into the PLO? Moreover, it would be interesting to discuss if there are any ideas for a better response to these people. We know that Muslim dominated countries tend to inflict alot of suffering upon their own people. Is that the fault of Islam or something else? I have no idea.

In any rate I really don’t give a d…n about the NI issue in this thread. If some of you wish to talk about that go start your own thread.

Dan L

[quote=GregoryPalamas]I suppose there is some comparison between the hypocrisy of Britain and the hypocrisy of Israel but that is really a detour away from the topic. I have no idea if Israel pulled out of all of the so-called Palestinian territory would improve the life of Palestinians or Israelis or not.

What I am interested in is a discussion of whether or not we have helped the Palestinians at all by pouring money into the PLO? Moreover, it would be interesting to discuss if there are any ideas for a better response to these people. We know that Muslim dominated countries tend to inflict alot of suffering upon their own people. Is that the fault of Islam or something else? I have no idea.

In any rate I really don’t give a d…n about the NI issue in this thread. If some of you wish to talk about that go start your own thread.

Dan L
[/quote]

I think only time will tell…with new leadership in Palestine there is more reson to think there might be a permanant change…

[quote=GregoryPalamas]What I am interested in is a discussion of whether or not we have helped the Palestinians at all by pouring money into the PLO?
[/quote]

This is hard to answer. We will not be giving the PA anything near the amount of aid Israel gets, and I don’t know that we have been “pouring money” into the PA.

Does anyone know if these figures are accurate?

“Since the Oslo “peace process” began in 1993, Palestinians have received more than $1.5 billion from the United States — more aid, as the San Francisco Chronicle pointed out in August, than from any other single country. Not that other countries, mainly European ones, haven’t been generous. The Atlantic Monthly’s David Samuels tallied up post-Oslo P aid at $7 billion, estimating that as much as half of that money was siphoned off by Yasir Arafat and his cronies.
Still the bucks flow. This year alone, the Chronicle reported, the United States will double last year’s $275 million PA aid package, paying out $550 million (not including the $50 million handed out in May, as near as I can tell). In July, even as jihadis struck the London Underground, the Group of Eight countries couldn’t pile up money for the PA fast enough, agreeing by 2008 to present its government — which by then could very well include landslide-elected terrorists from Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Qaeda, whatever — with $9 billion.”

I’m not asking, at this point which side of the fence you are on. I’m not particularly interested in whether you think the Israelis or the Palestinians are good or bad. Nor am I asking how much we should or should not have given to Palestine or to Israel. I’m not even directly interested in how Arafat used the money though evidence shows that he did not use it wisely. What I’m asking is this: How wisely was Americas money spent with the Palestinians?

I like the restaurants and fruit stands of Jericho. Wonderful. No doubt about it they add a certain flair for the tourists. I like the bedouin tents. Very nice. What I don’t like is the continued poverty of so many of the people after the Western countries have poured out quite a bit of money to alleviate poverty. I don’t like the waste and greed that has marked the past among the PA leaders which has contributed to the poverty. I don’t like the destruction of synagogues which doesn’t seem to bother anyone. I don’t like the taking over the Churches and using them to make war. I don’t like the suicidal-homicidal bombings. It troubles me greatly that oil money leaves a few very rich in the Middle East but most people living in poverty.

What I would like to see are strings attached somehow. Let’s see money going to Palestinians of whatever religion who have the ability to create jobs but haven’t the money to do so. Are there ways of finding them. People who can create jobs are the people who can develop industries, start and administer ways to teach people not how to strap on bombs but how to invest in building houses. Where are the Drs. and Administrators and, gasp, even lawyers?

Surely with all the smart people on this board we can resist pointing fingers at either the Palestinians, Israelis, or Americans and we can come up with some ideas for positive development. Don’t the Palestinians deserve that?

Dan L

[quote=Lurch104]Israel should get out of the West Bank right after England leaves Northern Ireland. I find it quite ironic how some of the pro-islamist Brits on this board have no comment on the occupation in thier own back yard.
[/quote]

Have no comment? Walstan & I are Irish. Matt is a Scott. I think you’ll find we all have plenty to say!
:slight_smile:

Ok,

No one here is either able or interested in addressing the questions. I guess I should know some answers but I don’t know many. Just alot of guesses.

Can anyone point me to sources where I mght find answers to my questions? Links or books either one would be helpful.

CDL

[quote=GregoryPalamas]Ok,

No one here is either able or interested in addressing the questions. I guess I should know some answers but I don’t know many. Just alot of guesses.

Can anyone point me to sources where I mght find answers to my questions? Links or books either one would be helpful.

CDL
[/quote]

You may find this site useful, I certainly do

ifamericansknew.org/

Mike

[quote=FightingFat]Have no comment? Walstan & I are Irish. Matt is a Scott. I think you’ll find we all have plenty to say!
:slight_smile:
[/quote]

I quite agree, and for lurch, I think the English should leave NI, WHEN THE MAJORITY OF NORTHERN IRISH SAY SO!!! That includes those who are not Nationalist’s or any other political persuasion. I would also poiont out that to my knowledge the English haven’t been building little enclaves in the north with barbed wire surrounding them and armed guards on the gates, unless of course you know something we don’t.

Note I said POLITICAL. not religious. You question the money sent to Palestine and imply it’s wasted yet, I don’t hear any question of money sent to NORAID that did so much to prolong the agonies of ALL the people of the north. Why is that? political expediency or a short memory?

It is exactly this form of disingenuous thinking that annoys people, if your going to criticise anything make sure that you are squeaky clean before you do becuase if your not somebody somewhere will take what you say apart.

Why is England in NI? because in 1921 a vote was taken that said the 6 counties wanted to stay British. Now you may question the validity of that vote (I do) you may even say it was rigged to give that result (I do) but however you look at it, it wasn’t the result of a war and invasion, unless of course you want to go back 400 hundred years to King Billie and the battle of the Boine.

p.s. Why is America now an independant country? I beleive you had a war with the British for your independance and accepted a lot of assistance from the French? I wonder if we should question the wisdom of the action?

palestinemonitor.org/factsheet/US_Aid_to_Israel.htm

The Israeli government is the largest recipient of US financial aid in the world, receiving over one-third of total US aid to foreign countries**4**, even though Israel’s population comprises just .001% of the world’s population and has one the world’s higher per capita incomes.

[list]
] Since 1949 the US has given Israel a total of $84,854,827,200. The interest costs born by US taxpayers on behalf of Israel are $49,937,000,000 – making the total amount of aid given to Israel since 1949 $134,791,507,200 (more than $134 billion).5
] The total cost of this financial aid to US tax payers per Israeli is $23,240.
] Since 1992, the US has offered Israel an additional $2 billion in loan guarantees every year.
*6
*] Nearly all past loans to Israel have been forgiven – leading Israel to claim that they have never defaulted on repayment of a US loan – with most loans made on the understanding that they would be forgiven before Israel was required to repay them.
*] In 1997 alone, the total of US grants and loan guarantees to Israel was $5.5 billion, i.e., **$15,068,493 per day. **
[/list]Military Aid

The United States provides direct and indirect military aid to Israel – totalling more than it gives to all the countries of sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, and the Caribbean put together, whose combined total population is 1,054,000,000.

According to a US Department of Defence Joint Report to Congress in March 2001, “It is in the United States’ national interest to promote the existence of a stable, democratic and militarily strong Israel, at peace with its neighbours …]”.7 According to a US State Department statement in November 2002, the US government is committed to “maintaining and enhancing Israel’s security and qualitative edge over any combination of adversaries” and “the important advantages the US-Israeli strategic relationship has and will continue to provide us.”8

[list]
*] Foreign Military Financing (FMF) is grants to foreign governments financing the purchase of American-made weapons, services and training. Israel receives 50% of the FMF budget request. The large sums paid by the US to Egypt and Jordan are in recognition of the two countries signing peace accords with Israel in 1979 and 1994 respectively.
[/list]
FMF Budget Request FY 2001: Total budget request: $3.54 billion Budget request for Israel: $1.98 billion Budget request for Egypt: $1.3 billion Budget request for Jordan $75 million

The majority of Israelis accept a two-state solution to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. Ehud Barak gave away the farm in 2000, but what he got in return was the second intifada. The Palestinians deserved much better than Yassar Arafat who had no political courage and who stole money from them.

To say that Israel invaded Palestine is also an unfair characterization. Israel accepted the UN partition plan and was promptly invaded by five Arab countries.

sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/08/19/MNGGMEA7811.DTL

The United States

The United States will double the $275 million aid, to $550 million, that it gives the Palestinians this year, according to Adam Ereli, a State Department spokesman. Since 1993, Palestinians have received more than $1.5 billion in U.S. economic assistance – more than from any other donor country.

In May, President Bush pledged $50 million in direct aid to the Palestinian Authority to build housing and other infrastructure projects in Gaza once Israel completes its disengagement. The administration also appointed former World Bank President James Wolfensohn as special economic envoy to the “quartet” – the United States, the European Union, Russia and the United Nations – tasked with raising money for aid and reconstruction from public and private sources…

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2001/5895.htm

Question: Are there safeguards to ensure that the aid we provide the Palestinian Authority does not go to associated groups such as the Palestinian Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP)?

Answer: The United States does not provide any financial assistance to the Palestinian Authority, the Palestine Liberation Organization, or affiliated groups. U.S. financial assistance is provided to contractors and non-governmental organizations in the West Bank and Gaza for specifically identified projects and initiatives in the areas of economic growth, water resources development, democracy and governance, maternal and child health, education, and community service.

These projects are carried out under stringent management and financial controls and supervised by American officers of the U.S. Agency for International Development to ensure that the funds are utilized in accordance with U.S. government laws and regulations.

Matt,

That is exactly what I was looking for. If this is the case I wonder why so little is made of this kind of aid? Do you have a list of completed protects?

I love Scotland. I studied at Glasgow several years ago and have done a little touring. My wife and hope travel there for our 40th wedding anniversary in 2007. It is bonnie bonnie country.

CDL

[quote=GregoryPalamas]Matt,

That is exactly what I was looking for. If this is the case I wonder why so little is made of this kind of aid? Do you have a list of completed protects?

I love Scotland. I studied at Glasgow several years ago and have done a little touring. My wife and hope travel there for our 40th wedding anniversary in 2007. It is bonnie bonnie country.

CDL
[/quote]

A word to the wise. You don’t endear yourself to someone from Edinburgh by mentioning Glasgow.

I don’t know where US money goes specifically maybe the US Aid website or the State Department one can tell you. Personally I support a charity- Medical Aid for Palestinians map-uk.org/index.htm its links page map-uk.org/links.htm might contain some useful infromation for you.

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