What is the difference between Scripture and the Bible?

More interesting stuff from Jimmy Akin’s blog:

jimmyakin.org/2006/01/scripture_vs_bi.html

Not any.

But do you ever notice how Prots are more likely to refer to “The Bible” - whereas Catholics traditionally refer to it as “Sacred Scripture”?

Likewise, they will say, “The Bible says”, or more precisely for example, “Galatians 5:22 says…”, whereas an educated Catholic will rather say, “As St. Paul writes to the Galatians…” (or “to the Christians of”, or “to the church in” Galatia, etc…)

The difference is semantics. Believe me, Catholics (and protestants) have their own language. While I speak protestant fluently, I’m still learning Catholic. But when it came to quoting scripture, I was not a very good protestant - or catholic. I can quote verbatium in a lot of cases, but the references escape me. Usually it comes out like…"Paul says somewhere in Galatians…"
Of course now it’s “St. Paul says somewhere in Galatians…” Or even worse I’ll quote the passage and then conclude with, “It’s somewhere in Paul’s writings.” Oops! I mean, St. Paul’s writings! :rotfl:

Don’t fret, you are in good company. Even the writer of the Letter To The Hebrews does the same thing:

Heb 2:6 -
It has been testified somewhere, "What is man that thou art mindful of him, or the son of man, that thou carest for him?

Heb 4:4 -
For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way, “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.”

It’s nice to know chapter and verse, but there’s no law that says you HAVE to! :wink:

[quote=tjmiller]Not any.

But do you ever notice how Prots are more likely to refer to “The Bible” - whereas Catholics traditionally refer to it as “Sacred Scripture”?

Likewise, they will say, “The Bible says”, or more precisely for example, “Galatians 5:22 says…”, whereas an educated Catholic will rather say, “As St. Paul writes to the Galatians…” (or “to the Christians of”, or “to the church in” Galatia, etc…)
[/quote]

I agree.

The reason the Protestants do this is to put St. Paul as equal to Jesus and then discard Jesus for St. Paul using the logic that all scriptures are inspired, equal and saying the same thing. Luther did this. However the reason Protestants do this is because, as they missunderstand what St. Paul is saying, it is not the same thing that Jesus is saying. This is why they say the bible says such and such rather than exposing their down playing of Jesus and using St. Paul’s letters “the bible” to overule Jesus teachings.

If one believes that St. Paul is telling us that God’s commandments are out, then one has to deemphasize Jesus who tells us to obey the commandments and feed the poor if we wish to enter into life.

Jesus teaches that it is those who do as He commands who go to heaven through His sacrificial grace. Protestants believe that only “faith” is needed to go to heaven through Jesus sacrificial grace.

St. Paul says,

Galatians 2:16
…who know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.Jesus says,

NAB MAT 19:16
"Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?" He answered, “Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." “Which ones?” he asked. Jesus replied “You shall not kill”; ‘You shall not commit adultery’; ‘You shall not steal’; ‘You shall not bear false witness’; ‘Honor your father and mother’; and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

NAB MAT 25:31

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

I have to disagree with Steven Merten’s take on what Protestants believe regarding this Scripture. And I think it is unfair to package ALL Protestants in one category (i.e. stereotype) just as it is unfair to package ALL Catholics in one category. When we discuss groups like this, we should always respectfully submit the idea that SOME believe such and such…otherwise thou cast judgements and not only that but you judge a group for the fault of an individual or individuals.

I must express the fact that SOME Protestants may disregard Jesus, as you say, in quoting Paul, but MOST Protestants would say that Paul wrote out of the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, so that we can trust what he says as to be in line with God.

I am especially interested in debating the meaning of the verse you shared from Paul regarding “works” vs. “faith”. I would not agree with you that Protestants believe if you have faith, that is all you need to be “saved.”

MOST Protestants understand these verses you’ve shared to be saying NOT that one is only to believe and be saved…they are saying that because one has believed all the promises of God, and because one has accepted Christ as the propitiation for one’s sins, and therefore one has been baptised (that is, immersed) in the Spirit, one can finally overcome sin, and live a righteous (works) life. If any work we do is not for the glory of God, our works are as filthy rags. We are given the power over sin and death by the Holy Spirit to not throw out the law, but to BE ABLE to obey it because of Him who lives in us.

This is sadly the most misunderstood difference between the Catholic and Protestant churches, in my humble opinion.

This and the sad fact that Catholics might pray to anyone other than Jesus Himself or God, the Father. Our God is a jealous God, and when we are taught to pray to “Saints” or Mary, the Mother of God, we are not in line with the teachings of the Bible.

Please tell me where in the Bible it says to pray TO the Saints. (It often says pray “for” the Saints, and that I wholeheartedly agree with … this does, by the way, mean YOU and ME – the living, breathing believers and disciples of Christ who are putting ourselves at risk by proclaiming the Word of God – We ARE the Saints!)

I know that some of what I am saying here may seem as blasphemy to the teachings of the Catholic Church, but I pray the debate will be allowed to continue, that you might be able to show me where I am wrong.

Yours in Christ’s Abounding Love,
D. Gibbs

[quote=Doreen]I have to disagree with Steven Merten’s take on what Protestants believe regarding this Scripture. And I think it is unfair to package ALL Protestants in one category (i.e. stereotype) just as it is unfair to package ALL Catholics in one category. When we discuss groups like this, we should always respectfully submit the idea that SOME believe such and such…otherwise thou cast judgements and not only that but you judge a group for the fault of an individual or individuals.

I must express the fact that SOME Protestants may disregard Jesus, as you say, in quoting Paul, but MOST Protestants would say that Paul wrote out of the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, so that we can trust what he says as to be in line with God.

I am especially interested in debating the meaning of the verse you shared from Paul regarding “works” vs. “faith”. I would not agree with you that Protestants believe if you have faith, that is all you need to be “saved.”

MOST Protestants understand these verses you’ve shared to be saying NOT that one is only to believe and be saved…they are saying that because one has believed all the promises of God, and because one has accepted Christ as the propitiation for one’s sins, and therefore one has been baptised (that is, immersed) in the Spirit, one can finally overcome sin, and live a righteous (works) life. If any work we do is not for the glory of God, our works are as filthy rags. We are given the power over sin and death by the Holy Spirit to not throw out the law, but to BE ABLE to obey it because of Him who lives in us.

This is sadly the most misunderstood difference between the Catholic and Protestant churches, in my humble opinion.

This and the sad fact that Catholics might pray to anyone other than Jesus Himself or God, the Father. Our God is a jealous God, and when we are taught to pray to “Saints” or Mary, the Mother of God, we are not in line with the teachings of the Bible.

Please tell me where in the Bible it says to pray TO the Saints. (It often says pray “for” the Saints, and that I wholeheartedly agree with … this does, by the way, mean YOU and ME – the living, breathing believers and disciples of Christ who are putting ourselves at risk by proclaiming the Word of God – We ARE the Saints!)

I know that some of what I am saying here may seem as blasphemy to the teachings of the Catholic Church, but I pray the debate will be allowed to continue, that you might be able to show me where I am wrong.

Yours in Christ’s Abounding Love,
D. Gibbs
[/quote]

www.scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

Wow…you overwhelm me with evidence to SUPPORT my thoughts. Thank you!

Yes, we are in communion with the Saints, because they are our sisters and brothers in Christ. This does not say we should worship them or pray TO them…the dead.

Yes, we have, as 1 Timothy 2:5

“For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus”

to verify the point that we have only to pray to Jesus, who LIVES to intercede for us.

Thanks for helping me with my argument. I see also that you state that Jesus spoke to Moses and Elijah. I understand this to mean that WE living humans are NOT to converse with the dead. (Just because Jesus does, is not meant as a determination that we should. Jesus also walked on water…should we?)

Conversing in any way with the dead is detestable to the LORD as it is in line with Sorcery and Witch craft. We have ONE LORD to speak to in our prayers.

The fact that Catholicism teaches the worship of Mary, is also something I don’t understand. Maybe you can help me with that point, as well. But then, I suppose that should be discussed in a separate thread, since this one will be closed by the monitors for straying from the topic.

Truly, I do appreciate all the text sent, and yet it isn’t easy to sift through it because what you sent does NOT have direct quotes from each of the Scriptures, but in fact, you site interpretations of each, which really isn’t a fair analysis of the Word of God.

So, I hope others who refer to your link will realize that they must refer to their own Bible to get the truth for themselves. (For example, I quote 1 Tim. 2:5 above, where as you have typed some sort of paraphrase from 1 Tim. 2. Not sure where your text is coming from.)

In HIS Grip!
D. Gibbs

[quote=Doreen]Yes, we are in communion with the Saints, because they are our sisters and brothers in Christ.
[/quote]

Are we commanded to pray for our brothers and sisters? Ever read the four verses prior to 1 Tim 2:5? Does this apply to us? Are we commanded to pray for eachother? Where does God ever tell us that this is to cease as soon as we pass on? Please, enlighten us as to when praying for our brothers becomes displeasing to God - is it the second we die? Could you please give us a scriptural citation for this?

This does not say we should worship them or pray TO them…the dead.

Worship of anything other than God is condemned as a mortal sin in Catholic theology. Prayer is simply a form of communication, gramatically deriving from the old English usage (Example: “Pray thee, why you bear false testimony against Catholics?”). Also, I would assert that we are more alive in heaven than we are here on earth; I don’t pray to dead folks.

to verify the point that we have only to pray to Jesus, who LIVES to intercede for us.

I’m not aware of anyplace where the Catholic Church says we have to pray (read: communicate form of the word) to anyone other than Jesus. That said, it is a good and righteous practice to have prayer partners; the more righteous, the better (Jas 5:16). Are you more righteous than everyone in heaven? I pray thee, pray for me!

I see also that you state that Jesus spoke to Moses and Elijah. I understand this to mean that WE living humans are NOT to converse with the dead. (Just because Jesus does, is not meant as a determination that we should. Jesus also walked on water…should we?)

You are saying that we are not to imitate Christ; I reject this. Walk on water? SURE - if your faith is that strong, you should! Peter did - was he being a bad Christian by your account?

Conversing in any way with the dead is detestable to the LORD as it is in line with Sorcery and Witch craft.

Necromancy is condemned in Catholic teaching as a mortal sin. Our conversations with the saints in heaven are (typically) one-way. We ask them to pray for us. That’s it. That’s what you’re freaking out about and calling ‘detestable’ to the Lord. Doesn’t make sense to me…seems like 1 Tim 2:1-4 says to do exactly that…

We have ONE LORD to speak to in our prayers.

We have ONE LORD, alright. We agree! There is only ONE LORD whom we are to worship. We agree! There is only one person with whom we are ever to speak - this is just silly, and we cannot agree.

The fact that Catholicism teaches the worship of Mary, is also something I don’t understand. Maybe you can help me with that point, as well.

Sure! Catholics condemn worship of Mary - see the Collyridians. They were the first to try and worship Mary, and the Catholic Church excommunicated them. The same condemnation falls to anyone who worships Mary (or anyone else) rather than God, who alone is worthy of our worship.

Truly, I do appreciate all the text sent, and yet it isn’t easy to sift through it because what you sent does NOT have direct quotes from each of the Scriptures, but in fact, you site interpretations of each, which really isn’t a fair analysis of the Word of God.

Yeah, it’s pretty hard when they only give you a citation and expect you to look it up…

So, I hope others who refer to your link will realize that they must refer to their own Bible to get the truth for themselves. (For example, I quote 1 Tim. 2:5 above, where as you have typed some sort of paraphrase from 1 Tim. 2. Not sure where your text is coming from.)

Do you really think the Bible was ever meant to be read outside the understanding of the Church? Who were the various NT epistles addressed to?

In Christ through Mary,
RyanL

Those “who have gone before us in the hope of rising again” are not dead. They are far more* alive * than you or me. And their prayers are far more alive before God, than mine or yours. Therefore, I ask them.

Rayn,
The fact that you signed your note, “In Christ through Mary” just proves the point that the Catholic teaching is that Mary has some power to save…or to intervene. SCARY!

Why would you say such a thing? You say that you “talk” unidirectionally to the Saints who have passed from this life. I say, why?

I agree that we pray for protection, which means, we ask that the Lord send His angels to guard us. I am totally okay with that! In fact, I have seen the angels guide my 2 year old down the stairs many times!

And I also agree that we should pray (mediate) on behalf of our living, breathing, brothers, sisters, and the lost…but we pray TO Jesus, who intercedes for us to the Father.

But the point is, many Catholics believe that they should pray TO Saints (You lose something and who do you pray to? Saint Patrick? Andrew? I lost track of who is the patron saint of what…and I am thinking, did these fine followers of Christ know they were going to forever be given soveriegn power over everyone’s lost eyeglasses for all eternity!? Ridiculous.)

It’s this kind of teaching that confuses your people and leaves them to give up prayer all together. After all, they pray to St. So and So and get no response, so why bother. Little do they know they are praying in vain.

Jesus says, “Ask for anything IN MY NAME…”

He means, that if you are HIS – you can proclaim His name (just as I am married to Mr. Gibbs, so I can bear His name.) If you are not in the Family of Christ, you cannot ask in His name.

The power is in His name, and if you have not accepted Him as your Lord and Saviour, you can’t carry that name. You pray in vain.

Back to the question at hand…What is the difference between Scripture and the Bible. Nothing!

Some people use the word “scripture” to refer to the Old Testament…since that was the way it was referred to in the early church. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be fully equipped for every good work. (2 Tim 3:16-17)

[quote=Doreen]Rayn,
The fact that you signed your note, “In Christ through Mary” just proves the point that the Catholic teaching is that Mary has some power to save…or to intervene. SCARY!
[/quote]

Many things Christ taught were ‘scary’ to those without ears to hear…

I say, why?

Because God told us to. We are commanded to pray for eachother, and that includes letting people know our prayer intentions; are we supposed to quit praying for people once we get to heaven? Says what?

I agree that we pray for protection, which means, we ask that the Lord send His angels to guard us. I am totally okay with that! In fact, I have seen the angels guide my 2 year old down the stairs many times!

Can you ask your guardian angle to keep a special watch over your 2 yo when you leave him (her?) with a baby sitter? Guess what - that’s the exact same thing.

And I also agree that we should pray (mediate) on behalf of our living, breathing, brothers, sisters, and the lost…but we pray TO Jesus, who intercedes for us to the Father.

Who do you think we are asking the saints to go to on our behalf?

But the point is, many Catholics believe that they should pray TO Saints (You lose something and who do you pray to? Saint Patrick? Andrew? I lost track of who is the patron saint of what…and I am thinking, did these fine followers of Christ know they were going to forever be given soveriegn power over everyone’s lost eyeglasses for all eternity!? Ridiculous.)

  1. Don’t call our beliefs “ridiculous” if you want to keep posting here. It’s offensive and I’ll report you if you do it again.
  2. I’ve already talked about the difference between prayer and worship, and you’re trying to confuse the issue.
  3. Go to Matt 25 and read verses 15-30. The context is eternal life. Could you please tell us what the master’s response is to the faithful servants?

It’s this kind of teaching that confuses your people and leaves them to give up prayer all together. After all, they pray to St. So and So and get no response, so why bother. Little do they know they are praying in vain.

  1. The prayers are often answered
  2. Your argument cuts just as hard against praying to Jesus
  3. You are not the final arbiter of what is “in vain” or not; please either withhold judgment or state that this is only your opinion (and not based on any scriptural support).

Jesus says, “Ask for anything IN MY NAME…”

We invoke the full Trinitarian name at the beginning and end of our prayers. I see nothing wrong here.

He means, that if you are HIS – you can proclaim His name (just as I am married to Mr. Gibbs, so I can bear His name.) If you are not in the Family of Christ, you cannot ask in His name.

And?

The power is in His name, and if you have not accepted Him as your Lord and Saviour, you can’t carry that name. You pray in vain.

Could you please cite the scripture that says we need to “accept Christ as our Lord and Savior”? I believe it, but I’ve never seen where the scriptures say as much… After all, if you’re going to hold me to that standard with regards to the Saints, you should be able to muster the support for your beliefs - right?

Back to the question at hand…What is the difference between Scripture and the Bible. Nothing!

Did you read the jimmyakin.org link?

One more question for you before I stop talking about the Saints on a thread about Scripture/Bible…

Could you please tell me how the “elders” received the prayers of “God’s people”/“the holy ones on earth” in Rev 5:8? It seems like it’s completely contrary to everything you’ve said about the Saints…

God Bless,
RyanL

First of all, Ryan,
I must apologize if I have offended you. I surely do not mean for this to become a hostile discussion. You are right. I should not be harsh in my tone. I do not hold any ill will.

That said, I will try to respond to your comments as clearly and simply as I can …in hopes to state my comprehension of things; as I truly DO want to understand yours.

Re: prayer: I never said we should not pray. I only question prayers TO and FOR people who are no longer with us.

Can you ask your guardian angle to keep a special watch over your 2 yo when you leave him (her?) with a baby sitter? Guess what - that’s the exact same thing.

I agree. I pray MOST when I cannot be there -either way, I pray to Jesus for sovereign protection. I depend on Him!

Who do you think we are asking the saints to go to on our behalf?

Help me to understand why we can’t just go directly to Christ.

  1. Don’t call our beliefs “ridiculous” if you want to keep posting here. It’s offensive and I’ll report you if you do it again.
  2. I’ve already talked about the difference between prayer and worship, and you’re trying to confuse the issue.
  3. Go to Matt 25 and read verses 15-30. The context is eternal life. Could you please tell us what the master’s response is to the faithful servants?
  1. My sincere apologies! I am sorry for those words.
  2. I surely don’t mean to confuse. I simply want to understand where the teaching is coming from ie we should pray to Mary
  3. I understand we must not simply enjoy the blessings of God, but “invest” by being a blessing to others, and sharing our knowledge of Christ – which is exactly why I am typing now.
  1. The prayers are often answered
  2. Your argument cuts just as hard against praying to Jesus
  3. You are not the final arbiter of what is “in vain” or not; please either withhold judgment or state that this is only your opinion (and not based on any scriptural support).

Re: the prayers in vain… I only speak from the experience of feeling like I had NO connection to the Lord when I was a practicing Catholic.

It is only after I gave my life (control) over to the Lord, that I began to feel His prescense, and I knew my prayers were heard. It is then that I also began to have “ears to hear” the Word of God. And it is then that I knew I was truly in the Family of God. I know His voice.

Could you please cite the scripture that says we need to “accept Christ as our Lord and Savior”? I believe it, but I’ve never seen where the scriptures say as much… After all, if you’re going to hold me to that standard with regards to the Saints, you should be able to muster the support for your beliefs - right?

I’m glad you believe we need to accept Christ as Lord and Savior. I understand this idea comes as an offense to some…it simply suggests that we submit to God (i.e. Call Him Lord) and trust Him to save us (i.e. Call Him Savior). The opposition to this is basically our will to control our own lives. In fact, society and our culture tell us the opposite. “No fear!” “Just do it!” “Believe in Yourself!”

I think if you read the entire Bible, you cannot do anything but summarize it by saying…HE is LORD; HE sent His Son to SAVE the lost. If we are His, we’ll submit our lives to Him, obey His commands (call Him Lord)and trust Him to save us.

A few verses to support the idea:
Dt.28:1, Dt.30:20, 1Kings8:61 and 18:21, Ps16:8, Ps19:14, Ps27:1, Ps29:1 and 2, Ps145:18, Prov.3:5, Jer17:7, Is43:3 and 11, Hosea13:4, Lk1:47, Jn4:42, Jude25,

Most directly: 1 Peter 3:15 “But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord.”

Did you read the jimmyakin.org link?

Not yet.

Could you please tell me how the “elders” received the prayers of “God’s people”/“the holy ones on earth” in Rev 5:8?..

I am not saying that the Saints in heaven aren’t able to witness the goings on here; aren’t able to see the prayers of the saints as incense in bowls at the time of judgement…But praying TO a Saint is never modeled by Christ; by any disciple of Christ; neither in the OT was one ever to pray TO Moses or other Patriarchs.

I’ll have to read your link tomorrow. Time for rest.

Thanks for your patience with me.
In Him,
D. Gibbs

[quote=tjmiller]Not any.

But do you ever notice how Prots are more likely to refer to “The Bible” - whereas Catholics traditionally refer to it as “Sacred Scripture”?

Likewise, they will say, “The Bible says”, or more precisely for example, “Galatians 5:22 says…”, whereas an educated Catholic will rather say, “As St. Paul writes to the Galatians…” (or “to the Christians of”, or “to the church in” Galatia, etc…)
[/quote]

I’m not a scholar in any sense, but what I see going on is a constant “spiritual warfare” between protestants and Catholics.

If you take a good look, there are a lot of “militant” protestants who are taking every pot shot at Catholics that they can think of. They want to demonize Catholicism as “religion” – a man made thing – instead of being the Church that Christ instituted and maintained for centuries.

They took a good swipe at Christmas (“Christ’s Mass”) last year by telling people to stay home, even though it fell on a Sunday.

And, on and on. Notice that they have a different Bible, different wording of the Lord’s prayer (although Catholics have recently adopted the protestant ending of the prayer in the last 20 years). And, they number the Ten Commandments a different way than Catholics do. The “point” is to distance themselves as much as possible from any Catholic opinion.

You know, it goes back to Luther disputing many, many things.

Of course, Catholics are up for this contest. I don’t think it’s any coincidence that in the U.S., the country is dedicated to Mary and so, so many parish churches are named for the titles of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Even Vat II said that devotion to Mary should not be excessive. Well, if it’s not excessive in the U.S., then it certainly borders on it. Even the National Shrine has all those altars dedicated to Mary. While I understand what it’s all about, the gross impression to non-Catholics is very “in your face.”

The “protestant reformation” is still being fought very fiercely on the streets and in the pulpits of the U.S.

The Catholics only worship Almighty God through a human image of Jesus Christ.

The Catholics pray with Jesus Christ the Most High through Mary, Saints, and Souls in the belief that we are in a communion. It’s similar to we send our lobbyists to Congress asking for supporting our plans. We need more voices for the same purpose.

The Catholics believe that Mary, and All Saints cannot do anything for us by themselves if they do not have God granted. It’s the same in the past as disciples had done miracles to show the power of God to whom strongly believe in Jesus Christ as Son of God.

Mary never asked people worship Her; but to bring us, the sinners, to Her Son, Jesus Christ.

When we are humble as sinners not worthy in front of God, we go to Mary and Saints to ask God for us.

Praying, do you want to go alone or with favorable companions to God? It’s your choice.

God decides which way to do; neither Mary nor Saint does.

J. Tran

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