What is the difference between the Calced and Discalced Carmelites?


#1

The thread title says it all pretty much. What’s the difference? I know the Discalced came from a reform in the order and have a different rule I do believe, but what else?


#2

The Discalced have colder feet?:D

Sorry, couldn't help myself.:o:o:o


#3

It’s probably true. :smiley:


#4

[quote="MarcusAndreas, post:3, topic:226399"]
It's probably true. :D

[/quote]

At the risk of being very pedantic (!) - footwear is not a good way to tell your Carmelites apart these days.;)

By the way, although the title of your thread seems reasonable enough, the correct titles for the two branches of the family are Carmelites of the Ancient Observance (Order of Carmelites or O.Carm, to which I belong) and Order of Carmelites Discalced or OCD. Your question is one that is frequently asked, and I'd refer you to this thread:

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=333843

Hope this helps.


#5

Actually, all kidding aside, you all are about right.

extreme poverty.

Read up on St. John of the Cross and St. Theresa of Avila.

There is also a Carmelite Web site. I think their USA office is in Washington DC. They have a great bookstore, which is where I got the collected writings of St. John of the Cross.


#6

I just joined the ocds in Buffalo and the nuns wore shoes!!!!!!!!:D

But the question has already been answered. I prefer the discalced to the o'carms. Especially in my area....:o:shrug:


#7

Dis calced Carmelite is barefoot, but Dat calced Carmelite is not. :rolleyes:


#8

[quote="Shoshana, post:6, topic:226399"]
I just joined the ocds in Buffalo and the nuns wore shoes!!!!!!!!:D

But the question has already been answered. I prefer the discalced to the o'carms. Especially in my area....:o:shrug:

[/quote]

Were the nuns wearing sandals or "real" shoes? From what I have read, the austerity of Discalced Carmelites is noticeably different from that of the ordinary Carmelites. The differences between the two orders seems to be largely historical. However, there have been a number of great mystics among the Discalced branch, including 3 Doctors of the Church, so their spiritual heritage could be said to be more eminent. However, the original order has continuity on its side.


#9

[quote="Young_Thinker, post:8, topic:226399"]
Were the nuns wearing sandals or "real" shoes? From what I have read, the austerity of Discalced Carmelites is noticeably different from that of the ordinary Carmelites. The differences between the two orders seems to be largely historical. However, there have been a number of great mystics among the Discalced branch, including 3 Doctors of the Church, so their spiritual heritage could be said to be more eminent. However, the original order has continuity on its side.

[/quote]

First. We O.Carm.s, as Brother has stated above are called either the Carmelites of Ancient Observence or Brothers of the Blessed Virgin Mary of Mount Carmel.

We are never called Calced Carmelites. That is defining us by the reform. That is something that should not be done.

As for the Doctors. Only one of those three you are talking about is a Discalced Carmelite, that would be St. Therese of Lisieux.

St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross, while being members of the Discaled reform were members of the Carmelites of Ancient Observernce. The Discaled did not become an order of their own until a year or so after the death of St. John of the Cross.


#10

[quote="MarcusAndreas, post:1, topic:226399"]
The thread title says it all pretty much. What's the difference? I know the Discalced came from a reform in the order and have a different rule I do believe, but what else?

[/quote]

I believe it's true to say that both Orders hold the Rule of St. Albert as THE Rule of each; what will differ are The Constitutions which form the respective members (Friars, nuns, Lay Carmelites and Secular Discalced Carmelites) in our day.


#11

[quote="ByzCath, post:9, topic:226399"]
First. We O.Carm.s, as Brother has stated above are called either the Carmelites of Ancient Observence or Brothers of the Blessed Virgin Mary of Mount Carmel.

We are never called Calced Carmelites. That is defining us by the reform. That is something that should not be done.

As for the Doctors. Only one of those three you are talking about is a Discalced Carmelite, that would be St. Therese of Lisieux.

St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross, while being members of the Discaled reform were members of the Carmelites of Ancient Observernce. The Discaled did not become an order of their own until a year or so after the death of St. John of the Cross.

[/quote]

Thank you for explaining that, Brother David. I also realize that one is never called a "Calced Carmelite;" I merely used that term for the sake of convenience in order to distinguish the ancient order from the reformed one.


#12

[quote="Brendan, post:7, topic:226399"]
Dis calced Carmelite is barefoot, but Dat calced Carmelite is not. :rolleyes:

[/quote]

Only if they're in New Orleans! :rolleyes:
runs

But anyway, to answer the question, discalced are the more traditional of the Carmelites (they used to not wear shoes).


#13

[quote="Jennifer_G, post:12, topic:226399"]
But anyway, to answer the question, discalced are the more traditional of the Carmelites.

[/quote]

Could you perhaps elaborate upon that? I'm a little puzzled to be informed that Brother David and I - who are Carmelite religious, but don't belong to the Discalced branch of the family - are less traditional than those who do. :confused:

Thanks in advance. :)


#14

[quote="Jennifer_G, post:12, topic:226399"]

But anyway, to answer the question, discalced are the more traditional of the Carmelites (they used to not wear shoes).

[/quote]

This is where I dislike this question.

How are the Discalced more "traditional".

Or can I ask how I, as a Carmelite, am less "traditional"?

The wearing or not wearing of shoes has nothing to do with tradition and does not appear in our Rule anywhere.

[quote="Young_Thinker, post:11, topic:226399"]
Thank you for explaining that, Brother David. I also realize that one is never called a "Calced Carmelite;" I merely used that term for the sake of convenience in order to distinguish the ancient order from the reformed one.

[/quote]

Yet you do use that term to describe us when you speak of us along with the reform. The question, if ask, should be how are the Discalced Carmelites different from the Carmelites.

The Carmelites have a long history of reforms within the order but every reform (until the Discalced) were integrated into the Order after some time. This most likely would have happened with the Discalced if it was not for the outside actors (the bishops and papal legates) who caused issues between the Order and the Discalced and eventually caused a rift and a split in the Order.

One of the biggest differences is that the Discalced look to St Teresa of Avila and St John of the Cross as founders while the Carmelites do not. We value their writings and study them but they are not our founders, they are our sister and brother. We do not know who our original founders are so we look to the Prophet Elijah and the Virgin Mary as our spiritual founders.

We both follow the Rule of St Albert. The differences will be found within our constitutions. I can not comment on the Discalced constitutions as constitutions are mostly private and kept within the Orders.


#15

[quote="Ocarm, post:13, topic:226399"]
Could you perhaps elaborate upon that? I'm a little puzzled to be informed that Brother David and I - who are Carmelite religious, but don't belong to the Discalced branch of the family - are less traditional than those who do. :confused:

Thanks in advance. :)

[/quote]

[quote="ByzCath, post:14, topic:226399"]
This is where I dislike this question.

How are the Discalced more "traditional".

Or can I ask how I, as a Carmelite, am less "traditional"?

The wearing or not wearing of shoes has nothing to do with tradition and does not appear in our Rule anywhere.

Yet you do use that term to describe us when you speak of us along with the reform. The question, if ask, should be how are the Discalced Carmelites different from the Carmelites.

The Carmelites have a long history of reforms within the order but every reform (until the Discalced) were integrated into the Order after some time. This most likely would have happened with the Discalced if it was not for the outside actors (the bishops and papal legates) who caused issues between the Order and the Discalced and eventually caused a rift and a split in the Order.

One of the biggest differences is that the Discalced look to St Teresa of Avila and St John of the Cross as founders while the Carmelites do not. We value their writings and study them but they are not our founders, they are our sister and brother. We do not know who our original founders are so we look to the Prophet Elijah and the Virgin Mary as our spiritual founders.

We both follow the Rule of St Albert. The differences will be found within our constitutions. I can not comment on the Discalced constitutions as constitutions are mostly private and kept within the Orders.

[/quote]

That's the term I've heard. :shrug: I didn't mean it in the sense of "traditional" and "liberal" (as it stands today), though, unless when I first heard it, I misunderstood... I meant it in that St. Therese (or was it St. Teresa? I always get the two mixed up) wanted to go back to the way the early Carmelites were.


#16

[quote="Jennifer_G, post:15, topic:226399"]
That's the term I've heard. :shrug: I didn't mean it in the sense of "traditional" and "liberal" (as it stands today), though, unless when I first heard it, I misunderstood... I meant it in that St. Therese (or was it St. Teresa? I always get the two mixed up) wanted to go back to the way the early Carmelites were.

[/quote]

It is Teresa. Her goal was to create a reform of the Carmelite Order (not create a new Order) that was more strict in following the Rule. She wrote a set of constitutions for this. It later included the friars but did not in the beginning.

When she lived within a non-reform house (which she did as superior for a time) she did not make them follow her reform.

So I guess I am saying that the correct term to use would be "more strict" rather than "more traditional".

Today I do not think there is much difference between the Orders, even with the cloistered Discalced sisters. The sisters have two constitutions and the house choses which one they will follow. I know of a Disclaced cloister where habits are never worn and the sisters wear albs to Mass. That can hardly be called "traditional" or, IMHO, even "strict".

Today it almost goes down to the individual friar or sister. Maybe to their priory or cloister. Surely to their Province.

Today saying someone is more "traditional" than someone else in religious life is an insult to the one that you are implying is less "traditional" hence my and Br Mike's reactions.

I thank you for your understanding and apologize if I came off harsh at all.


#17

[quote="ByzCath, post:14, topic:226399"]
Yet you do use that term to describe us when you speak of us along with the reform. The question, if ask, should be how are the Discalced Carmelites different from the Carmelites.

The Carmelites have a long history of reforms within the order but every reform (until the Discalced) were integrated into the Order after some time. This most likely would have happened with the Discalced if it was not for the outside actors (the bishops and papal legates) who caused issues between the Order and the Discalced and eventually caused a rift and a split in the Order.

One of the biggest differences is that the Discalced look to St Teresa of Avila and St John of the Cross as founders while the Carmelites do not. We value their writings and study them but they are not our founders, they are our sister and brother. We do not know who our original founders are so we look to the Prophet Elijah and the Virgin Mary as our spiritual founders.

We both follow the Rule of St Albert. The differences will be found within our constitutions. I can not comment on the Discalced constitutions as constitutions are mostly private and kept within the Orders.

[/quote]

All right. I appreciate your insight.


#18

[quote="ByzCath, post:16, topic:226399"]
Today I do not think there is much difference between the Orders, even with the cloistered Discalced sisters. The sisters have two constitutions and the house choses which one they will follow. ** I know of a Disclaced cloister where habits are never worn and the sisters wear albs to Mass.** That can hardly be called "traditional" or, IMHO, even "strict".

[/quote]

Oh, dear!


#19

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