see letter 187 of Augustine on the donatists, skip to the last few paragraphs, it explains extra ecclesiam nulla salus, of course, we do believe that you aren’t guilty unless you know, and choose, or else your conscience condemns or saves you, by what you do know, so many non-catholics could go to purgatory or heaven.
But St.Paul said because of Israels trangressions, it means riches for the world.
We need not be so cold to the broken branches of Israel!!!
I like to look at this the other way around. We need to ask the same questions St.Paul asks. How much greater is the Church when Jews accept Christ?
Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
I of course reject jesus. I do not believe he was God or the son of God. However, I can’t imagine that because my faith rejects the notion of Jesus that I am condemned to hell or that Church theology teaches this. It was always my understanding that in order to reject Jesus in a way that would cause one to be denied by the God, one would have to first believe that Jesus was God. And then reject him.
The Gospels are not a set of magic words, that once uttered within my hearing, require me to either accept jesus or go to hell. If that is the way the universe works, we can dispense with the very notion of divine justice or mercy.
But Jesus is Divine Mercy and Divine Justice in person thus if one rejects Him when they’ve been given the ability to know of Him and trust in Him, then that person has just rejected Divine Mercy and Divine Justice.
Everything God gave to old Israel and everything He did for them was prefiguring and leading up to the fulfillment in Jesus Christ. When Jesus came, many Jews did not recognize it. They, as Sacred Scripture attests, crucified the Lord of glory. Jesus came to save Jew and Gentile. He suffered His Holy Passion and His Holy Cross to save them all. If someone rejects that which God did and does, how can they be saved? They are rejecting God and His plan for them. Jesus is Lord and God of all. If someone has heard and not taken what they’ve heard seriously, they are in grave danger. All men need faith in Christ and Jews moreso since Jesus is the fulfillment of the law and the prophets.
So it’s not a matter of Divine Mercy not being in the world if someone rejects Jesus. It’s a matter of rejecting the Divine Mercy being offered. That is damnable because it was purchased for us all at so great a price.
Lev - it is not I who am cold to Jews. I pray for their conversion. There is no escaping the fact that anyone who consciously rejects Jesus or who consciously rejects The Catholic Church is going to hell. No matter how much we empathize with the Jews and their condition no matter how one wants to spin it we simply can’t change God’s word.
The scriptures you reference are all conditioned on the Jews final acceptance. We know that in the future a remnant will accept Jesus and be saved. The entire Christian religion was STARTED by Jewish converts - FOLLOWED by us Gentiles. It is through these Jews that the blessings will flow to all the nations. Let’s not forget that the Apostles and most of the early converts were Jews.
For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.
The concept of “Jew” as a nation of religion is no longer relevent. That is except for some final end-times completion of prophecy for a small remnant of Jewish converts in the last days.
I don’t think even most Christian “get it”. All of Creation was made for one purpose - to bring honor and glory to Jesus Christ. It’s not about bringing honor and glory to the Jews. The Jews are simply instruments of God’s Divine Providence.
In heaven there are only brothers and sisters in Christ - human ancestry, race and gender is irrelevant. All that is relevant is they be part of Christ’s Church - the new nation of God.
In hell, there are only damned souls who have lost all linkage to human ancestry. Therefore, in hell there is no Jew, or Greek. In hell there are only the damned slaves to self determination. These ALL directly rejected God or did not see God in Christ or were so blinded by hubris and pride that they rejected Christ by consciously rejecting His Catholic Church.
No doubt all mankind(including Jews) needs Jesus Christ for salvation. Whether or not Jews who accept Messiah for salvation must also take RCIA classes, I won’t debate that with you.
I also know all men are equals in Christ, I have stated that many times on these forums.
But its this “redundency” of the Jewish people outside the Church I do not accept. I find it ironic how people use Galatians 3 to basically treat unsaved Israel as “just another people”. Now Im not saying Jews are better than Gentiles, but consider how St.Paul referred to them-
I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit— I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.
And I say a double Amen!!
What St.Paul wrote is why the Gospel went to the Jews first, then the Gentile. Not because they were better, but because of these things St.Paul writes about.
Even Jesus said his time on Earth is almost over when Gentiles came to seek him out(obviously working among the Gentiles was to be a job for his Church). John 12:20-23
Now there were some Greeks among those who went up to worship at the Feast. They came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, with a request. “Sir,” they said, “we would like to see Jesus.” Philip went to tell Andrew; Andrew and Philip in turn told Jesus.
Jesus replied, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified.
I think to the Jew first is lost today, because of this redundacy to what God has shown these people before Christ came in the flesh. How much more greater is the body of Christ and the witness of Christ when Israel returns to God by his Son!
"Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,"
declares the LORD,
“will the descendants of Israel ever cease
to be a nation before me.”
This is what the LORD says:
"Only if the heavens above can be measured
and the foundations of the earth below be searched out
will I reject all the descendants of Israel
because of all they have done,"
declares the LORD. **
The New Covenant is made with the same Israel. God is so exact here on how dear his people Israel is to him. The “Jew” is relevant today!
Again, some words from St.Paul to “GENTILES” that came into the Church
(((((I am talking to you Gentiles.))))) Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, (((((do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.))))) You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
(((((Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.))))) And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!**
Sadly, some of the anti-Semites who contributed to that thread, two in particular, have now simply moved here.
I made substantial contributions to the previous thread and do not intend to participate further in this one. I will only repeat two brief observations:
Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah because Jewish tradition and doctrine, established centuries before Christ, sets forth the qualifications for Messiahship quite clearly, and Jesus does not meet these requirements. A condensed list of some of the requirements was posted in the previous thread.
Anti-Semitism on a Roman Catholic forum is shameful.
We Jews have been around more than three millennium
Except for the Jews, even until now, almost all other people in the world in order to conceptualize God have to give their Deity a physical form, whether inanimate or human (see discussions on this forum as to what Jesus looked like and what he will look like when he returns).
From a Jewish point of view there is nothing “new” in the “new testament”.
The story of Yehoshua bar Yosef is the same story, mutatis mutandis, as that of Mithras and Osiris and Tammuz and Adonis and Balder and Attis and Dionysus and Hercules and Perseus and Theseus. They have all been worshiped at one time or another, and all have been believed by certain groups to be gods They have all had virgin human mothers and they have all had Divine fathers.Other then their special births with accompanying signs we are always told nothing of their childhoods. In adulthood they all performed special wondrous acts for mankind. They all died for the salvation of mankind and they have all been, according to their stories, resurrected back to their fathers.
Of course the Tanach virtually knocks you over the head in its emphasis not to go that route. The story of the Jews receiving the Torah at Mt.Sinai is placed with the story of the golden calf. Human beings no matter how great, from Jacob to Moses to King David are constantly shown with all their human failings. For instance, Moses is not only punished by God and not allowed to go into the promised land, he is not even allowed a known grave lest he becomes an object of veneration. That is the story of the covenant. God doesn’t take inanimate form or the form of a human being. That’s what separated the Jews from all the others, the intellectual ability to grasp God without the crutch of giving Him a physical form is what made them special and unique.
Of course the other “new” thing in the “new testament” is a certain amount of Jewish ethics but that naturally isn’t new to the Jews.
And the Jews eternal fate? To continue to believe in the one and only God.
Valke, what happened to the Jews who rejected The Lord? The Jews killed 23,000 of their own non-believers by cutting their neighbors throats to avoid God’s wrath.
John 3:36 (NIV)
“Whoever puts his faith in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see that life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”
Then standing in the gate of the camp, he said: If any man be on the Lord’s side, let him join with me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him: 27 And he said to them: Thus saith the Lord God of Israel: Put every man his sword upon his thigh: go, and return from gate to gate through the midst of the camp, and let every man kill his brother, and friend, and neighbour. 28 And the sons of Levi did according to the words of Moses, and there were slain that day about three and twenty thousand men.
While you have God’s breath in you there remains an opportunity to know the truth. Being in these forums is a strong indication that God is trying to lead you to the truth. So pray hard that you may find the truth before you die because scripture is very plain about what happens to those who reject God and those He sends.
It is not a good idea to try to trivialize Christian beliefs based on the rash assumption of a superior theological history and pure orthodox belief system. It took the Jews a long time to become “orthodox” in their beliefs. If you want to be honest first recognize that the Jews as a nation where relatively “Johnny-come-latelys” compared to other societies that predate the old testament writings. In fact when Abraham was called the world had already seen the 3rd Dynasty of UR (2090-1960) as evidenced by various archaeological literature (e.g. Gilgamesh, Enuman Lish, Code of Hammurabi).
So if you go back far enough in history you will discover that the Jews apparently “borrowed” and synthesized from more ancient cultures much of their own beliefs, values and folk lore. And least we forget our modesty let’s not forget how soon the Jews abandoned God to worship false gods (the golden calf - yet another one of those “physical forms” of deism? But the Jews covered their bases and did one better - the golden calf was a plural “gods” - see exodus). This was even after God has rescued them from Pharaoh’s yoke and after God performed all His mighty works and wonders. After all that it only took 40 days for the Jews to completely forget God as they became bored and restless waiting for Moses to come down off mount Sinai.
If fact it is safe to assume that Moses was raised as a noble Egyptian and had privileged instruction according to the social mores and beliefs of Egyptian nobility. This had to have made a profound influence on Moses’ way of conceptualizing the world and understanding things. We can safely assume that Moses was taught all the leading false religions of Egypt and must have been exposed to quite a bit of early human mythology and pagan belief.
In fact, most people think the 10 commandments were unique to the Jews. But many aspects of the 10 commandments where in fact taken in substantial part from the Code of Hammurabi - a common civil law that existed for a substantial period time before the Jews were even a nation.
The bottom line here is that if God can make a sinful people like the Jews who could so easily forget their Deliverer from the bondage of Egypt (metaphorically - “sin”) and who forged them into a people worthy of himself and the Promised Land (metaphorically “heaven”) then God indeed is an awesome God and can work the most amazing miracles!
The Jews who failed to convert just need to wake up now and realize they failed to recognize their messiah and all their own scripture that they had been waiting for over 2000 years.