What is the goal? Protestants vrs Catholics?

This could be a little sticky. Apologies…

One of the themes I see in all the threads within the topics of the non-Catholic threads is the debate about Protestants and Catholics, especially when it comes to trying to do one of the most important things that Cahtholics can do.

Re-unite us. Or, is this whole site about doing the opposite?

As a former Lutheran and now Catholic, I am concerned about my Lutheran Brothers and Sisters… for even though they do not see the Holy Orders and the Majestarium and certain Sacrements… I believe that they should know about what it is to be Catholic and certain myths displelled. Like all Catholics hate Lutherans. Many Lutherans have no idea what the word “catholic” means, a “universal” term, meaning that the Church is universal area, encompassing the whole world. Many Lutherans see the word “catholic” and automatically see a loaded word. Something to reviled.

Yet, I know the truth. Catholism among Protestants is now in our day and age more similar than a like.

Anyone can condemn Luther… for what he did. We can pick all the falicies and go so pro-catholic that he can be an enemy for ever… Yet, many of the things he wanted when he tried to “hit the nail on his theses,” have been recrified for Catholism grows and it does not stay stagnant. It’s a process, by the Majestarium, evolves and, not only corrects itself, but improves itself.

From what I have gathered as a former Lutheran is how much Catholism evolves into something that goes beyond what it was and not only improves, but solidifies itself. To, me, if Luther could see what the Catholic Church is now, he might be more lenient toward it.

When I grew up Lutheran, Mossouri Synod, I was exposed to a certain type of service. The hymns were practically identical and the service was modeled the same as Catholic. Did you know that when you said the Lutheran Nicene Creed, that it actually said, the, “I believe in the Holy Catholic Church?”

I said it.

It makes you wonder, setting aside doctrine and all insites and historical references, why it was like that?

Why was it so easy for me to study Catholism, ask to see a priest, and after a few secessions with him discussing what I learned, become a member of his Church, reciting an identical Nicene Creed ver batum and become member of the Catholic Church in the district Diocese? I was not taken lightly…

My own zeel for becoming a part of and belonging to the “Universal Church” was extremely important to me.

Yet, I still know what it was like to be in a Lutheran Church. I also have found a push toward total “Catholism,” in such a way as it almost condemns those who do not hold our beliefs.

Basicall, a non-Catholic comes on, asks a question about Catholism, and the answer is practically condemning that person for ever being NOT a part of Catholism with an “either or, or else” attitude.

If you are not Catholic your completely wrong.

Intermingling with Protestants and Catholics in Bible studies is forbidden.

Even though Protestants have sacrements they are not valid.

It’s like saying to the protestant community that if you want to post here… “It’s OK. But, I hope you understand, we will pull you a part and make your beliefs totally invalid.”

It’s not that we don’t want them to see our view points? It’s not that we don’t want them to belong to the “Universal Church,” and become one in all the Sacrements, understandings of what makes us so imortant as Catholics? It’s not that we don’t wan them to even become Catholic… and to mend 500 year old skism?

It’s the fact that our pride as Catholics might be creating a fracture between the very Bothers and Sisters we want to find us? Could it be that?

This thread is for “non-Catholic and Catholic dicussions.” So, what is the goal… to verse Catholics in the heretical ideas of protestants or the continued growth in creating a one unified Church of Christianity?

I am afraid many non-catholics who join this area to understand Catholism might be kicked off. Kicked off because we are not sensdative enough to recognise them as potential Christians who can become with a one unified Church. A whole real Universal Church. A Catholic “Universal” Church that shows those who once were apart from us can be educated, understood and most of all accepted into one unified Christian Church… the goal from our own roots. To allow us to be one faith, strong within it’s ability as The Christian Church without any problems, showing all people on the planet how beautiful our faith really is…

If we can not do this what are we?

I would like to see a thread devoted to the “sensativities,” not just sensabilities of what it is like to be Catholic. Where those who are Protestant are free from feeling riduculed… if that is really the term, though it is a loaded term… so, that we can have a real discussion free from any pride at all… it’s purpose?

  1. To educate those who are Protestant to the Catholic Faith.
  2. And, to educate those who are Catholic to the Protestant Faith. (How can a Catholic help a protestant understand the Catholic faith if they don’t even understand the Protestant faith?)
  3. Try to create a dialoge that actually helps us come together… (if we condemn each other, how can we come together.
  4. Try to allow our Protestant Brothers and Sisters to understand Catholism, with the knowledge and love so they can make there own choices to find us, sicne choices has always been the forefront of evangelism.

These are my thoughts. It’s up to you to decide where this thread might lead…:shrug:

There is a lot of truth in what you say. What I have learned is any type of on line discussion, here included, draws in " characters " who aren’t interested in much more than to " stir up the pot. " Also, I have seen many I’m sure are juveniles and/or relatively uneducated and/or obviously immature. I assure you, and I think you know this yourself, these " cranks " cannot be taken as representative of Catholics in general. I sometimes wonder myself whether or not annonymous, public discussions have any value at all. For me it is a source of entertainment more than anything, because I don’t watch T.V. or watch movies and I’m pretty much a hermit. So it provides companionship of sorts - at least it puts me in touch with live human beings. Beside that, I am interested in several of the forums and try to make constructive comments on them - whether or not they do any good.

So stay loyal and don’t let these folks upset your day. :thumbsup:

I agree with much of what you’ve said, and have witnessed it here. But this statement really resonates with me. I think maybe even the newly converted are most guilty of this, but could be wrong.

That said, it’s a Catholic website, and many come here to attack. This has caused a knee jerk reaction in many members.

It’s also true that some members I have noticed seem to just be waiting for the chance to pounce on someone. Sad.

I agree with your sentiments, and would only add that in this Non-Catholics Religions forum, it is not just Protestants who are invited to post, but other non-Catholic and even non-Christian religions also. They, too, deserve to be treated with respect.

Linus has stated some very good points in reference to the problem that you write of in your OP.

The problem with open boards such as this is that we get “all kinds” offering things from many different viewpoints. Even discounting the occasional “pot sturrer”, there is such a diversity in how we express things and how we “read” things that we can never really get rid of the problem.

That said…your post is a good one and I fully agree that we need to be charitable in our responses so as to draw others toward the Church. Jesus said that it is by Love that the world will know that we are His disciples…

Peace
James

i agree with the O P…

i’ve only been on here for a short while and i have noticed people who come on and have no intention of debate ,questioning,or understanding of catholicism.all they seem to do is ridicule or insult.i have thick skin,luckily but others have not…

please don’t think i’m being pedantic when i point this out,i don’t like pedantic folk but when you said this…

Did you know that when you said the Lutheran Nicene Creed, that it actually said, the, “I believe in the Holy Catholic Church?”

thats the difference,C of E catholic,protestant are catholic,Anglican are catholic…

what it should say like it does in Roman catholic and Orthodox is “I believe in one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church”…

can you now see the difference??

that is the divide…

but once again i agree with a good amount of the post you have put up…:thumbsup:

The following is from the Nicene Creed as it is said in our liturgy:

"We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church."

Somehow, it does not seem too different.

well if thats the case,you are saying the Nicene creed,not the lutheran creed…

does that mean luther never had a creed,only the one that was given from Nicea??

what is it that separates us then from unifying as a church?

what is it made the divide in the first place?

And the Roman Catholics are as good at pouncing on those who are not Roman Catholics as their counterparts ie, Protestants who are as good at pouncing. We are all guilty of fighting our corner rather than listening to what each other have to say here.Its has very little to do with our faith but more our personality and whether we are quick to judge or take our time in listening and working through what we are all saying. At the end of the day there shouldn’t be any competition because we all believe and love God but yes, we are human and competition is a strong human trait it seems. We really shouldn’t be worried how the others do so, our main battle/conquest is helping people to God rather than looking at our differences and telling each other we are wrong for them. Use our differences in uniting people to God rather than dividing us within denominations.

peace
xxx

I think what you are really asking, Entangled, is: What makes good apologetics?

The problem we see on CAF and other such fora is simply that many come with no idea how to do apologetics–they come with their emtions on their sleeve instead of seeking a reasonable discussion or intention to inform others.

Some who have left one faith community for another often feel they wasted part of their lives in the wrong place. They blame their former community for this and can bear a grudge that blinds them to any kind of reasoned discourse. I’m not saying all or even most, but they exist and some of them post on CAF.

When we discuss matters of faith we should be charitable, reasonable, and understanding. Without love for the ones we wish to reach we can be overbearing and repel. Of course, those asking questions/airing concerns should be open-minded, courteous and patient. It is impossible to fully answer any question of faith in a few pithy words. Anyone who expects this is kidding himself.

I often advise people to do some reading from reliable sources before asking questions to ward off the “gotcha” kind of questions from people who have no real knowledge except from what they’ve read by those with a negative agenda. I tell people that any website that dedicates itself to debunking faith or ridiculing people of faith or that attacks another faith community rather than encouraging living the life of Christ should be avoided at all costs as poison, because that’s what it is.

No, you did not say “Catholic.”

You said said “We believe in ***one holy catholic and apostolic ***Church.”

reference elca.org/What-We-Believe/Statements-of-Belief/The-Nicene-Creed.aspx

You said “catholic” with a lower case c, meaning universal or worldwide. You did not say the proper noun “Catholic” with an upper case C, meaning the Holy Church governed by the Chair of Peter in Rome. The “universal” catholic Church as believed in by non-Catholics and the Holy Catholic Church governed by the Chair of Peter in Rome are two different things. The creed of the ELCA does not profess belief that the universal Church is the Church governed by the successor to Peter.

It’s OK to speak of unity, and non-Catholics will bring many gifts into the Catholic Church, but unity will only come when the Churches unite under the Holy Father who governs the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church with the legitimate authority given to him by God as the vicar of Christ.

Unity under the Holy Father is the definition of unity.

-Tim-

Lutherans confess the Apostles’, Nicene, and Athanasian Creeds. There is no “Lutheran Creed.” Our thinking is that these creeds express our belief in the Holy Trinity and in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church. Sadly, that church is currently divided in its earthly expression.

the lutherans creed i said was of the first post… i was only repeating what he had wrote…and he said he was a former lutheran…

you said …

Sadly, that church is currently divided in its earthly expression.

firstly works aswell as faith saves us…that is what i believe…

secondly it is the papacy (the magisterium),peter holds the keys to heaven and on him he will build his church…this is also what i believe…

would you agree on those points?

ps…on a side note can you pray for the dead?please dont think im having a pop.im curious because ive read of other lutherans that they dont.no prayer can get you from purgotory and once in heaven there is no point…who is to say they are in heaven?

=doormouse73;9950895]the lutherans creed i said was of the first post… i was only repeating what he had wrote…and he said he was a former lutheran…

you said …

firstly works aswell as faith saves us…that is what i believe…

secondly it is the papacy (the magisterium),peter holds the keys to heaven and on him he will build his church…this is also what i believe…

would you agree on those points?

Not speaking for Pastor, but myself.
On the first about works, it greatly depends on how you phrase it. No works of ours saves us, but certainly the failure to do good works (sin) can cause a loss of faith.

On the second regarding the papacy, when the Eastern Orthodox patriarchs accept it, I will too, since they were there at the writing of the Council of Nicea.

ps…on a side note can you pray for the dead?please dont think im having a pop.im curious because ive read of other lutherans that they dont.no prayer can get you from purgotory and once in heaven there is no point…who is to say they are in heaven?

Lutherans can and do pray for the dead. It never harms to pray to God. Whether or not they have an effect is up to Him. We leave it to His grace and mercy.

Jon

On prayers for the dead, from the Apology of the Augsburg Confession:

Regarding the adversaries’ quoting the Fathers about the offering for the dead, we know that the ancients speak of prayer for the dead, which we do not ban.

Jon

@ JonNC

Not speaking for Pastor, but myself.

is that then valid what you are saying,or is it what the pastor is saying isn’t??

byw it is good to pray for the dead,:thumbsup:

also…

and if you have no faith in my eyes you cannot do works…

but…

if you have faith,you should do works…:thumbsup:

and lets not forget that we both worship Jesus Christ…:thumbsup:

It is my convictioin that without the Protestant movement the Roman Catholic church in America would have fallen by the wayside. WHAT?

God used biblical Christianity to:

** Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.**

I think that the Catholic Church in America would have gone by the wayside of Europe if it was not for biblical Christianity within America.

When I was growing up the sacred scriptures never once were opened in our home, eventhough I attended Catholic schools through high school.

Compare that to biblical Christians, and then compare that to the early Church Fathers. All the ante-Nicene church fathers ever did was quote scripture upon scripture upon scripture. This is how they combatted the many forms of gnosticism, this is how they defended bodily resurrection and all sorts of catholic doctrines. This is how they brought discipline to wayward churches.

Yes, we can say that iilliteracy was an impediment for biblical teaching being known to the laity. However, I do think from reading these early church documents, that biblical teaching did not begin and end with baptism and the holy Eucharist. Biblical instruction was an intregal part of the daily, oral instruction of the apostolic and early church.

So, I believe that God allowed this to happen for His good purpose.

God’s peace

micah

=doormouse73;9953088]@ JonNC

is that then valid what you are saying,or is it what the pastor is saying isn’t??

that wasn’t my intent. My intent was to show Pastor Gary due respect by not presuming to answer for him. I might add that Pastor and I, over our mutual stay here at CAF, agree on almost all points.

byw it is good to pray for the dead,:thumbsup:

Certainly.

and if you have no faith in my eyes you cannot do works…
but…
if you have faith,you should do works…:thumbsup:

I wouldn’t disagree with this at all.

and lets not forget that we both worship Jesus Christ…:thumbsup:

Amen.

Jon

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