What is Truth and how much of it matters to God?


#1

I am a lifelong Catholic considering Orthodoxy. While there are several significant differences between the 2 churches, a couple of the MOST significant are papal supremacy and the filioque.

But God seems to have revealed himself to both churches as well as others, and I think we all agree there is merit in Christianity as long as it is pure and truly and deeply believed and practiced.

So, if I were to switch to Orthodox, how would I be (for lack of a better term) "punished" for leaving the Catholic Church for one who does not believe in the absolute supremacy of the pope? Does God REALLY care whether I confess that the holy spirit through the filioque or not? I don't seriously think any Orthodox believes that their refusal of it means that Jesus is any less God than the Catholics do.

And also, while i understand that Medjugorje is not approved, and many Catholics don't accept it, Is it possible that what they say the BVM has said there is possible, i.e. "if you are a muslim, be a good muslim?"

Is it possible that a loving God looks beyond the rules of ALL of his Churches and judges us on his own terms?

Or am I trying to shop at the cafeteria?


#2

I think my basic question is, does it matter that "our truth is truer than their truth?"


#3

I think seeking the truth is VERY important to God.

Thessanolians 2

9 Whose coming is according to the working of Satan, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders,

10 And in all seduction of iniquity to them that perish: because they receive not the love of the truth that they might be saved. Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe a lie.

11 That all may be judged, who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity.

On the other hand I believe those who seek the truth but have not found it yet can be saved. I also really think that if someone really does not care about truth he is already condemned.


#4

I think Truth is very important.....a Truth that orders our lives.....a Truth that causes us to LIVE it out before this world....a Truth that calls us to seek "incarnation" with Him and be His Presence...His People in this world. A Truth that inspires us to exhibit love and kindness to our neighbor and stranger in our midst....a Truth that makes our words kinder...out touch gentle...our service unshakable.

Truth is not necessarily something that can be captured in our creeds...but embodied in our day to day lives....unless Truth is lived.....it really has no meaning.


#5

OK, then whose truth? Frankly, I don't care whether men tell me I'm condemned. I do care if I AM condemned. If it matters that I personally get the papal supremacy thing right, why are there landmines like this all over the place?

In the end all we can do is believe that each of us has figured out the truth, in spite of the innumerable variants and subsequent condemnation by those we disagree with. I think God will cut me a break if I am truly convicted that I am living the way he wants me to.

Is this wrong?


#6

As long as you never stop seeking I think God will cut you slack.

There is vincible and invincible ignorance.


#7

[quote="RKO, post:5, topic:293115"]
OK, then whose truth? Frankly, I don't care whether men tell me I'm condemned. I do care if I AM condemned. If it matters that I personally get the papal supremacy thing right, why are there landmines like this all over the place?

In the end all we can do is believe that each of us has figured out the truth, in spite of the innumerable variants and subsequent condemnation by those we disagree with. I think God will cut me a break if I am truly convicted that I am living the way he wants me to.

Is this wrong?

[/quote]

I don't think God "cuts us a breaik"...but He offers astounding grace and mercy to those who love Him and seek to know Him. At the Last Judgement, as told by Jesus in Matthew...the Judge never asks what one believes or what ecclesial community one belongs to....instead...."I was hungry...thristy....in prison....and you did not."


#8

[quote="InJesusItrust, post:6, topic:293115"]
As long as you never stop seeking I think God will cut you slack.

There is vincible and invincible ignorance.

[/quote]

I'm counting on that. Thanks for saying it!


#9

John 18:37-38


#10

[quote="RKO, post:2, topic:293115"]
I think my basic question is, does it matter that "our truth is truer than their truth?"

[/quote]

I don't think it matters to God what "is" the truth. But it matters very much to God that we constantly seek to find the truth and that we do so with an eye on the end. Truth is not the end goal; eternal life is. And as God very much desires us to live eternally with Him in heaven, our pursuit of the truth is important.

I am a lifelong Catholic considering Orthodoxy. While there are several significant differences between the 2 churches, a couple of the MOST significant are papal supremacy and the filioque.

But God seems to have revealed himself to both churches as well as others, and I think we all agree there is merit in Christianity as long as it is pure and truly and deeply believed and practiced.

Yes, that's what it seems to us in our human imperfection. But if you believe that, and you left Catholicism, you would be rejecting what you believe to be the truth for what you believe to be another truth. That's very different from moving to a different understanding of truth.

So, if I were to switch to Orthodox, how would I be (for lack of a better term) "punished" for leaving the Catholic Church for one who does not believe in the absolute supremacy of the pope?

Punished by the Church or punished by God? The Church punishment for joining another Church is that you are potentially committing a schismatic act and that's punishable by automatic excommunication. While the Church does not consider the Orthodox currently in schism, that is based on the individuals not having personal responsibility and the same could not be said for someone who is leaving Catholicism today.

God's punishment is not for us to say and would depend quite a bit on what happens between now and the hour of your death. :)


#11

The key words here is:
Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus
If you understand that you know the true teaching of the Church.


#12

which church?


#13

[quote="RKO, post:12, topic:293115"]
which church?

[/quote]

The only one true Church, the Roman Catholic Church.


#14

Isn’t the Roman Catholic Church a term that denotes one of 27 particular churches within Catholicism?


#15

[quote="Sixpence, post:14, topic:293115"]
Isn't the Roman Catholic Church a term that denotes one of 27 particular churches within Catholicism?

[/quote]

I think the Roman in Roman Catholic stands for the pope. And the on particular Church with the roman ride is called Latin Church. But maybe I am wrong. I just used it, because some abuse the name Catholic Church for the group of "Churches" using sacred Tradition(like Anglicans or Orthodox).


#16

So to love God through another apostolic, Christian Church means eternal damnation? ( the question is mostly rhetorical.)


#17

[quote="Sixpence, post:14, topic:293115"]
Isn't the Roman Catholic Church a term that denotes one of 27 particular churches within Catholicism?

[/quote]

[quote="Andre1000, post:15, topic:293115"]
I think the Roman in Roman Catholic stands for the pope. And the on particular Church with the roman ride is called Latin Church. But maybe I am wrong. I just used it, because some abuse the name Catholic Church for the group of "Churches" using sacred Tradition(like Anglicans or Orthodox).

[/quote]

It depend on who you ask. :) I was taught that Roman Catholic Church, when used by Catholics, means any of the individual Churches that is in communion with the Pope. (now the original use, invented by the Anglicans was a bit different, but that's another topic)

And within that umbrella are the 27 particular Churches with the more familiar one in the US being the Latin Church.

BUT, I have since been told that some Eastern Catholics take offense at that classification. They prefer that we use the term Roman Catholic only to refer to the Latin rite (and it's closely associated rites and uses). As far as I know, they do not offer a term for all 27 Churches together other than simply Catholic.

(not much help in a discussion of truth, is it?)


#18

Honestly, this comes down to whether you believe that Christ set up one church: the Roman Catholic Church (even if others have parts of the truth). If you do, why would you consider any of the others?


#19

I’m not sure that I do believe that Jesus set up only one church. If he set up one, then that makes 30,000 or so other churches who profess a love of Jesus christ as their savior to be detrimental to the people following them. And I don’t think God feels that anyone who is truly doing their best to love him and follow his commandments should be condemned to hell because they chose one of the 29,999 “landmines” instead of the only one he accepts.

Actually, forget that. i think Jesus set up Christianity and man has done everything to make it confusing. i do think there are Churches with more truth than others, but i think and HOPE God looks into your heart to see your level of sincerity, and to see how you’ve followed “the whole of the law.” Beyond that, love God, Love your fellow man, and stay away from busy intersections.


#20

[quote="Corki, post:17, topic:293115"]
It depend on who you ask. :) I was taught that Roman Catholic Church, when used by Catholics, means any of the individual Churches that is in communion with the Pope. (now the original use, invented by the Anglicans was a bit different, but that's another topic)

And within that umbrella are the 27 particular Churches with the more familiar one in the US being the Latin Church.

BUT, I have since been told that some Eastern Catholics take offense at that classification. They prefer that we use the term Roman Catholic only to refer to the Latin rite (and it's closely associated rites and uses). As far as I know, they do not offer a term for all 27 Churches together other than simply Catholic.

(not much help in a discussion of truth, is it?)

[/quote]

Thank you, I did not know how many Eastern Catholics feel.

[quote="RKO, post:19, topic:293115"]
I'm not sure that I do believe that Jesus set up only one church. If he set up one, then that makes 30,000 or so other churches who profess a love of Jesus christ as their savior to be detrimental to the people following them. And I don't think God feels that anyone who is truly doing their best to love him and follow his commandments should be condemned to hell because they chose one of the 29,999 "landmines" instead of the only one he accepts.

Actually, forget that. i think Jesus set up Christianity and man has done everything to make it confusing. i do think there are Churches with more truth than others, but i think and HOPE God looks into your heart to see your level of sincerity, and to see how you've followed "the whole of the law." Beyond that, love God, Love your fellow man, and stay away from busy intersections.

[/quote]

The Catholic Church and the Orthodox agree that this is a heresy. That there is only one true Church, is a teaching that we must believe, or we excommunicate our self.


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