What is with these people?

What has happened to "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who’ve trespassed against us?"
news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100330/ap_on_re_eu/eu_the_vatican_s_defense

Remember, they are not suing the Catholic Church, but are suing the secular state of Vatican City.

EDIT: What I wonder is how you are going to enforce a suit against another country unless you are going to send in troops or something…

I know, but I’m starting to really get disgusted. With this next statement I don’t want to offend, but as a Vietnam Veteran, I also get disgusted with some vets using the war as an excuse for unacceptable behavior. What I want to sometimes yell out is “Forgive, forget, and move on!” There are more atrocious things happening in the world that need attention drawn to them.

Edwardjohn,

With all due respect, it’s easier said than done. Forgiveness is, by far, the hardest thing to do when your a Christian. EDIT-We should never say “You must forgive” all we should do-is listen and pray.

I have (thank God) never been abused by a trusted mentor. I shudder to think of the horror it would create.

I do NOT support suing the church, of course not. If a law was broken, those responsible need to “be a man” (a phrase used so often by Catholics) and take the punishment.

[quote="Edwardjohn, post:1, topic:192781"]
What has happened to "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who've trespassed against us?"
news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100330/ap_on_re_eu/eu_the_vatican_s_defense

[/quote]

Well I guess some people are willing to go to these lengths to put more pressure on the Vatican to investigate into these cases. I guess they just felt like they were not being helped by the Church at all...
That's all I could think about that.
I don't think they will have much of a chance though considering the fact that the pope is a head of state and has immunity.

A lot of people feel like justice has not been served.

BTW- in general, I do not believe it is a sin to sue people. Now, suing the Vatican…is that a sin?

By seizing their assets in those countries where laws allow it.

In the U.S. for example, if these people got a judgment, they could march into a parish and seize the “Peter’s Pence” collection. They could seize any money the dioceses might contribute to the support of the Vatican. They could seize relics or other treasures that are “on tour” around the world. They could seize bank accounts or money in transit from one bank to another.

There’s a lot they could do. Probably a lot more than I could possibly suspect.

It does seem like the church messed up here in a BIG way. If you mess up, there are consequences…

Now, the morality of the issue is what is confusing…

Not sure who is specifically is supposed to operate in forgiveness in the article…The world system surely won’t follow that…The church is supposed to be above reproach in a wicked and perverse generation…Harmless as a dove…The church at Corinth was shown how the church itself was to judge and purge itself of evildoers…To be honest something was not handled in the correct way from the start…There are a lot of hurting catholic parishioners out there that will need more that hearing an "I sorry’ I repent to get them through this…A lot of trust was lost from a place that should have been the safest place in the world for adults and their children…Had people not been shuffled, offenders taken of circulation and everything exposed, much of this “fires” popping up and damage control might have been eliminated…Scripture tells us two or three witnesses can bring up charges against elders…They are given opportunity for repentance/healing and if they they don’t desire change/keep offending are put out of the church and turned over to satan…Personally I think there should be some serious housekeeping and repentance in you church to restore it’s trust in your church members and the body of Christ as a whole…Somehow fear kept these people from coming for right away…I know someone who had a bad experience. They left and became Anglican to begin the process of healing…peace to you…

In terms of the morality, what I mean is there a Church law that forbids lawsuits and even a lawsuit against elements of the Church?

I’m not sure, but I have been under the impression that suing the Church automatically brings excommunication with it.

1 Corinthians 6:1-8
1 Does any one of you, when he has a case against his neighbor, dare to go to law before the unrighteous and not before the saints?
2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts?
3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?
4 So if you have law courts dealing with matters of this life, do you appoint them as judges who are of no account in the church?
5 I say this to your shame Is it so, that there is not among you one wise man who will be able to decide between his brethren,
6 but brother goes to law with brother, and that before unbelievers?
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?
8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.

Thank you brother. I needed what you said to put me back into focus. You’re right, some serious housekeeping and repentance is needed. I just love the Catholic Church and am quite taken aback with this whole thing.

Scripture, while authoritative, is not a legal document in the strict sense. In other words, while the ideal might be for Christians to settle there problems outside of civil courts, to say that such lawsuits are sinful would require an authoritative Church document forbidding them under pain of sin.

That’s a good point. What about suing officials in the Church though?

It would make sense that suing the Church would incur grave penalties because, by its very nature, the Church cannot be subjected to civil law (Divine Law and Authority supersedes any civil law or authority).

Your very welcome my spirit filled brother in Christ…I would feel the same if I was in your place.

I am more upset with the Church hierarchy than anyone else. They really have brought this all down on their own (and our) heads. The media and the lawyers just do what they always do - no surprise there. Frankly, if it had not been for them most of us Catholics still wouldn’t know about the abuse and it would probably still be going on.

I don’t think the lawsuit against the Vatican will be successful for this reason mentioned in the article.

*“If Pope Benedict XVI is ordered to testify by a U.S. court, foreign courts could feel empowered to order discovery against the president of the United States regarding, for example, such issues as CIA renditions,” Lena wrote in a 2008 brief. *

The Church will prevail. It is going to go through an even rougher time than it did in the last 10-12 years because it will be international now, not just in the US. I think it will ultimately be a good thing and the Church will be cleansed and stronger afterward in every way that matters.

Are you telling me that it is ok to sue the Church or one another because Scripture is not a legal document? Shouldn’t we be able to work out the problems on the way to court?

I think suing the Church is probably a sin because you are trying to subject Divine Authority to civil authority. There is no higher earthly authority than the Church.

In terms of suing fellow Christians; obviously, it is ideal for people to work out there issues outside of court and we should avoid frivolous/nuisance lawsuits, but what do you do if you have a serious issue that has gravely affected someone to the point that it will require funds to help them and the other party is being intransigent? Certainly, I would think lawsuits should be the act of last resort…

[quote="Janet1983, post:18, topic:192781"]
Are you telling me that it is ok to sue the Church or one another because Scripture is not a legal document? Shouldn't we be able to work out the problems on the way to court?

[/quote]

If the Church had behaved scripturally instead of like a corporation we wouldn't be having a problem. Now we are subject to the secular laws because we didn't properly manage our own affairs.

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