What is worship?


#1

I note that Protestants do not worship God. They have prayers, devotions, and readings. I have always questioned this mentality, for I do not know how they can say they obey the first commandment, which requires woriship. Please explain!


#2

True worship fulfills Malachi 1:11

For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.

It requires incense and a pure offering. In other words, it requires a SACRIFICE. The context shows a liturgical context, like at a service.

Christ fulfilled the sacrificial requirements, once and for all, but how is this one-time sacrifice fulfills this prophecy? Because we offer up to God the PURE OFFERING of the Body and Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ (Eucharist)

Protestantism doesn’t fulfill this. They don’t have the pure offering.

They may offer prayers, praise, hymns, to God, which is what the incense can symbolize, but no pure offering.


#3

I think the issue of worship is being taken to technically in this post. As a former Baptist, I can tell you I spent many occassions in deep prayer and in a formal setting collectively worshiping God. The post by BobCatholic seems to narrow - I could be wrong.

Chuck


#4

[quote=Chuck]I think the issue of worship is being taken to technically in this post. As a former Baptist, I can tell you I spent many occassions in deep prayer and in a formal setting collectively worshiping God. The post by BobCatholic seems to narrow - I could be wrong.
[/quote]

Yeah, you prayed, and praised, but not worshipped in the fulfillment of Malachi 1:11. Offered the (symbolic) incense (prayer, praise, hymns), yes, but where was the pure offering?


#5

Rom 12:1- “Therefore brothers, in view of God’s mercy, offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to the Lord. This is your spiritual act of worship.”

whenever we offer ourselves to God it is worship. whether in prayer, devotion, song or service it is worship. the eucharist is the most perfect form of worship but the others are worship none the less.


#6

[quote=bengal_fan]Rom 12:1- "Therefore brothers, in view of God’s mercy, offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to the Lord. This is your spiritual act of worship."

whenever we offer ourselves to God it is worship. whether in prayer, devotion, song or service it is worship. the eucharist is the most perfect form of worship but the others are worship none the less.
[/quote]

I saw that verse, but that is not in the context of a liturgical setting. Malachi 1:11 is.


#7

[quote=BobCatholic]I saw that verse, but that is not in the context of a liturgical setting. Malachi 1:11 is.
[/quote]

how is it not in the context of a liturgical setting. it could be taken within the liturgy or apart from the liturgy. either way we must offer ourselves as a living sacrifice. that is an act of worship and protestants can and do worship in this way.


#8

[quote=bengal_fan]how is it not in the context of a liturgical setting.
[/quote]

Malachi 1:11 is in the context of a liturgical setting. Verse 10 mentions an altar, which is done at liturgy.

it could be taken within the liturgy or apart from the liturgy. either way we must offer ourselves as a living sacrifice. that is an act of worship and protestants can and do worship in this way.

The liturgy that fulfills Malachi 1:11 has both incense and a pure offering. If we’re talking spiritualy, then the incense represents what protestants are doing (praise, prayers, hymns). The “pure offering” is what? Nonexistent in protestant settings. That’s why we have the Eucharist, which is the pure offering.


#9

[quote=Chuck]I think the issue of worship is being taken to technically in this post. As a former Baptist, I can tell you I spent many occassions in deep prayer and in a formal setting collectively worshiping God. The post by BobCatholic seems to narrow - I could be wrong.

Chuck
[/quote]

In the Catholic church such items as the rossary, the Way of the Cross, collective prayer, or deep prayer are known as devotions. These are in no way confused with worship.


#10

I agree with Chuck, I believe the CCC does too.

901 “Hence the laity, dedicated as they are to Christ and anointed by the Holy Spirit, are marvelously called and prepared so that even richer fruits of the Spirit maybe produced in them. For all their works, prayers, and apostolic undertakings, family and married life, daily work, relaxation of mind and body, if they are accomplished in the Spirit - indeed even the hardships of life if patiently born - all these become spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. In the celebration of the Eucharist these may most fittingly be offered to the Father along with the body of the Lord. And so, worshipping everywhere by their holy actions, the laity consecrate the world itself to God, everywhere offering worship by the holiness of their lives.”

Hey, let’s do us all a favor, and ask the administration to set up a Feeneyite forum so you guys would have a place to go, and the rest of us could avoid it.

This does remind me of one of my favorite jokes, a very old one at that:

A man arrives at the gates of heaven. St. Peter asks, “Religion?”

The man says, “Methodist.”

St. Peter looks down his list, and says, “Go to room 24, but be very quiet as you pass room 8.”

Another man arrives at the gates of heaven. “Religion?”

“Baptist.”

“Go to room 18, but be very quiet as you pass room 8.”

A third man arrives at the gates. “Religion?”

“Jewish.” “Go to room 11, but be very quiet as you pass room 8.”

The man says, “I can understand there being different rooms for different religions, but why must I be quiet when I pass room 8?”

St. Peter tells him, “Well the Catholics are in room 8, and they think they’re the only ones here.”

John


#11

[quote=BobCatholic]Malachi 1:11 is in the context of a liturgical setting. Verse 10 mentions an altar, which is done at liturgy.

The liturgy that fulfills Malachi 1:11 has both incense and a pure offering. If we’re talking spiritualy, then the incense represents what protestants are doing (praise, prayers, hymns). The “pure offering” is what? Nonexistent in protestant settings. That’s why we have the Eucharist, which is the pure offering.
[/quote]

the “pure offering” is themselves. easy enough huh? the eucharist is the best pure offering but it’s not the only thing we give to God. the first thing we give to Him is ourselves and that is worship according to st. paul.


#12

[quote=bengal_fan]the “pure offering” is themselves. easy enough huh? the eucharist is the best pure offering but it’s not the only thing we give to God. the first thing we give to Him is ourselves and that is worship according to st. paul.
[/quote]

hmmm, this is a tough one. I agree with Bengal fan though in the different types of Worship, with the Eucharist being the perfort form of Worship. I do feel though that a church service without communion is an incomplete way to worship


#13

[quote=John Higgins]I agree with Chuck, I believe the CCC does too.

Hey, let’s do us all a favor, and ask the administration to set up a Feeneyite forum so you guys would have a place to go, and the rest of us could avoid it.

This does remind me of one of my favorite jokes, a very old one at that:

John
[/quote]

**In the celebration of the Eucharist these may most fittingly be offered to the Father along with the body of the Lord.

They do not stand as worship outside of the celebration of the Eucharist. Only when they are offered up at the Eucharistic baquet are they considered worship.
**


#14

[quote=beaver]Only when they are offered up at the Eucharistic banquet are they considered worship.
[/quote]

Yeah, from your mouth to the Magisterium’s ear.

John


#15

[quote=bengal_fan] the first thing we give to Him is ourselves and that is worship according to st. paul.
[/quote]

There’s a difference between what your interpretation of St. Paul and what St. Paul is thinking :slight_smile:

Unfortunately (for you) these things are not the same :slight_smile:


#16

[quote=BobCatholic]There’s a difference between what your interpretation of St. Paul and what St. Paul is thinking :slight_smile:

Unfortunately (for you) these things are not the same :slight_smile:
[/quote]

so you know what st. paul was thinking? unfortunately (for you and everyone else) no one can know what he was thinking. i’m fairly sure this is an obvious passage and that offering our bodies is a spiritual act of worship. self-denial is an act of worship (as there is a sacrifice being made).


#17

as a former baptist, i would agree and disagree with you, mr catholic. may i call you bob? :slight_smile:

prots have a different idea of what worship IS than catholics do. this is why prots accuse caths of worshiping mary. the things that prots do when they’re worshiping God, alot of them are things that caths do when venerating mary. so they say we’re idolators.

however, i think that basically the argument here comes down to the word ‘worship’. you’re saying a sacrifice must be made for ‘worship’ to take place. this would, of course, mean that there was no such thing as worship before the jewish sacrificial system came along. but it’s arguable that there WASN’T worship then. however, i think it’s justifiable to say that praise and exaltation are forms of worship, less perfect than the Eucharist, but very holy and pleasing to God.

as long as we are defining ‘worship’ differently, the discussion will soon devolve into ‘yes it is’, ‘no it’s not’. :slight_smile:


#18

[quote=bengal_fan]so you know what st. paul was thinking? unfortunately (for you and everyone else) no one can know what he was thinking.
[/quote]

I never claimed to know the mind of St. Paul :slight_smile: However, those who interpret him, claim to do so by claiming their interpretation of his words is correct. They therefore confuse their interpretation of scripture with scripture.

i’m fairly sure this is an obvious passage and that offering our bodies is a spiritual act of worship. self-denial is an act of worship (as there is a sacrifice being made).

Sure, if you believe that a literal (or literalist) interpretation is what St. Paul was thinking at the time he wrote that passage.

I can’t say what St. Paul was thinking at the time he wrote the passage.

How do we know what St. Paul was thinking? This requires the apostolic interpretation of scripture. (according to protestants this was lost)


#19

[quote=jeffreedy789]as a former baptist, i would agree and disagree with you, mr catholic. may i call you bob? :slight_smile:
[/quote]

You can call me BobCatholic, or BC or BobC or Bob :slight_smile:

prots have a different idea of what worship IS than catholics do. this is why prots accuse caths of worshiping mary. the things that prots do when they’re worshiping God, alot of them are things that caths do when venerating mary. so they say we’re idolators.

I understand this fact. When I deal with protestants, I know they have defined the word differently than we do.

The problem is that idolatry is committed in the heart (as it says in the OT), not by external actions like praise and prayer.

however, i think that basically the argument here comes down to the word ‘worship’. you’re saying a sacrifice must be made for ‘worship’ to take place. this would, of course, mean that there was no such thing as worship before the jewish sacrificial system came along. but it’s arguable that there WASN’T worship then. however, i think it’s justifiable to say that praise and exaltation are forms of worship, less perfect than the Eucharist, but very holy and pleasing to God.

I agree that “praise and hymns” (in the right way of thinking) are forms of worship, but by no means are they the “pure offering” That Malachi was prophesizing.

Praise and hymns are worship, if the ones doing it, are doing it to the Supreme Being (God) acknowledging His Dominion, divinity, omnipotence, omniscence, creatorship, etc. Praise and hymns are NOT worship if we are doing it to lesser beings (like the saints) for we don’t think they’re God, or omniscent, divine, etc.
The problem is: protestants usualy don’t realize that distinction.


#20

[quote=John Higgins]Yeah, from your mouth to the Magisterium’s ear.

John
[/quote]

John, John, John

You must leave the realm of the senses and enter the realm of mystery.

There is but:
One Mass
One Mediator
One Priest
Why John?
Because there is but one event.

We are people of the realm of mystery not of the senses.


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