What differentiates Jesus, from angels & man who are simply noted as being created, versus Jesus, that in Hebrews, we find, was created ‘above the angels’, and also referred to as the only begotten Son of God? How was His original creation different from that of angels or man? What happened, that made Him the only begotten Son of God?
If you happen to be interested in the LDS (Mormon) view of this topic, one way to read about it would be to read the thread you will find about Jesus and our salvation, started by Lamb of God Girly. It includes a thorough discussion of how Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God, and the Firstborn.
Jesus is of the same essence as that of His Father and the Holy Spirit, He is therefore God. You can think of it as a father and son having the same flesh and blood, but the picture of the son being only an image, even though it resembles the son’s likeness.
The angels and man and the whole of creation is created by God and is thus not God. We are made, whereas the mystery of the Godhead is that Jesus along with the Father and Holy Spirit are uncreated, they are one Godhead and the creator of everything there is.
The Cathechesim of the Catholic Church (CCC) gives a very good definition of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Read section two of the CCC: usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt1ind.shtml
Jesus is the union of God and man. He is the Son of God incarnate. When God assumed human nature, Jesus was created.
Who is the Son of God? He is the Son of the Father. He is the Second Person of the Trinity. Each Person is God, so the Son is God. Which is why He is also called God the Son. Who is the Son of God specifically? He is the Word of God, which is begotten of the Father. Just as when a man speaks his words or voice are still inside of him, so too, the Word is in God and is God. The Word of God is eternal and uncreated, and since only God is eternal and uncreated, the Word is God Himself. God has no parts or pieces or components, He is totally One, so the Word which is in God must be God; God is the Word, just as God is Love.
The scripture states that he is the only begotten son of God, but it is not compelling. He called everyone to be begotten again of God. To be born again is the common phrase, but the greek word meant begotten. Jesus said of himself many times that he had been sent by God, and prayed that the father send his followers. This I believe means the same as to be reborn. When he said that he was sent by God and not by his own power, I believe Jesus was saying that he had been born again of the spirit, in being sent.
Jesus said that we are to become sons of God. Just as Jesus had to be baptized, he also had to become a son of God by being sent. This is in line with the doctrine of his humanity.
Read carefully John 8, where he seems to conflate his being sent by God with being the son of God…
In His yeshua,
Jesus being sent by His Father does not make Him less than God. As the Catholic Church teaches the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God. Three persons in one God and each has a special role and a special relationship to each other. Read the link I had put on my previous post to understand better the Holy Trinity.
What you have stated is called the heresy of Adoptionism. If you accept the heresy that you have professed then you have denied the faithfulness of God and called God a liar. The OT is full of God’s promise to send His Son, who is God. Every OT prophecy about Jesus also states that He is God. In addition to that God Himself testified that Jesus was His Son and that we should listen to Him. But perhaps the very testimony of God HImself is not enough for you.
You can look up this website and find other heresies that might suit your purposes: webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/heresies.html
St. Paul said that there would be people with itching ears to hear lies and these forums always prove him to be right when people like you come up with your ideas about who Christ is.
See for yourself there is no man, who can bring himself back to life. Jesus being God incarnate is the only one to lay down His life and take it back up and death has no power over Him.
The world cannot accept this because the world is not for Christ so it likes to invent tales to create a Christ more suited for its tastes and that is exactly what heresy is. It is an attempt to put God into a mold that suits the desires of people instead of accepting with humility the True revelation of God in the incarnation of His Son.
Hebrews doesn’t say that the Son was created “higher than the angels”, it doesn’t say He was created at all. Creation refers to the making of something, and the Son was not made but rather always was. This can be seen from the opening of the Gospel of John. Anything created can’t share the Divine Nature absolutely speaking (and Hebrews says that the Son does have the Divine Nature) because the Divine Nature is eternal and can’t be created. Creatures can share in the Divine Nature through participation, however, and this is what is called Sanctifying Grace and Glory.
Peace and God bless!
You don’t seem to understand what I had posted. Being sent by God is a supernatural event. It has nothing to do with any kind of adoption, it is a kind of birth.
You are to be sent and reborn. The gospel is about the kingdom of God, which you will never see or enter into until you have been born again.
Forget all of the theological arguments, none of that will save you, it is a waste of time. Seek the kingdom of God.
But, beyond this kind of argument, tell me what you know about God from your own experiences.
Thank you for your post. I have also read the postings by others. None of the responses explain what I am asking. They are simply ‘beliefs’ (personal interpretations of scripture).
When I read the first chapter of Hebrews, it appears that Jesus was ‘made so much better than the angels’ (created?) and it also appears, that God His Father created the angels. In Rev chpt 4, it appears, that God His Father is sitting on His throne, and that this same figure created all things. Again, in Rev, 3:4. Jesus is referred to as ‘the beginning of the creation of God’. In Isaiah 44:6, there is no mention of The Holy Ghost. In the NT, it is written, that if we are found worthy until the end, we can become sons/daughters of God, equal unto the angels.
Isaiah 44:6 seems to tell me, that The Almighty God created (begot) Jesus before any other creation (as Lord of Hosts, and future reconciliation for all other creation).
It really appears to me, that there is something wrong with the NT writings. When I read the whole NT writings, I become confused, as to who is really the creator. Was it Jesus, or His Father, or, did the Father create some, and Jesus create the rest? The above mentioned scriptures seem to conflict with ‘any’ answer. Combined, they don’t make sense. When I add the first chpt of John, 1 John 5:7, etc. etc., it gets even worse. It almost appears, that even the authors were confused. I also remember reading in the NT (I forgot whether it was Paul or not), that he acknowledged the ‘mystery’ behind God, The Father, etc., etc. It appears, that he didn’t know the answer, either.
Another confusing passage, is Rev 1:6. Since we are told not to change ‘any’ part of Revelation, I dare not do so.
Your comments are very well appreciated. I am simply confused. I believe in The Trinity and The Godhead, but I’m not quite sure, that my understanding is correct.
Remember that in Genesis God often used the word ‘us’ when describing himself. As in ‘Let us make man in our image’ from Genesis 1:26. Since God is the sole creator of everything, the Catholic understanding is that it would follow that when he said ‘us’ he was referring to himself as part of the trinity since God is one in three. If God is the sole creator of all things and he himself uses the word ‘us’ to describe himself as part of the trinity and God himself is uncreated then logically all three persons of the trinity are uncreated. Thus to say that God became ‘The Son’ when he incarnated in Christ or to say that the son was created when Jesus was born is false. God the Son always was, always is and always will be just like God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.
Keep in mind that when looking at Isaiah to look for evidence about when God became ‘The Son’ Isaiah lived in a time before God revealed himself as ‘the trinity’. Therefore the best you could come up with are hints of the trinity, like Isaiah fortelling that the messiah will be called “might God” (Isaiah 9:6)
I’ve met many people like you who are an authority to themselves. Obviously, in your own eyes you are infallible therefore you talk about your own experience. I choose to trust the Holy Spirit who directs the hearts and minds of the bishops whom he appoints. I do have a personal relationship with God, but I don’t need you to verify it for me.
Being born again refers to baptism. The first birth is the natural birth from our mother’s womb. The second birth is by the water of baptism and the Holy Spirit, who descends when we are blessed in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Just as the Jews used to circumsize their infants so that they would belong to God right from infancy, we Catholics are baptized in infancy. The Jews did not say they need another circumcision after growing up and neither do we see a need for a second baptism because that would be trusting an outward sign. Baptism is once and for all, after being baptized we are called to live out our baptism. Catholicism is not a new religion it is the flowering of Judaism from which Jesus said salvation comes.
Entering the kingdom is not as simple as you think it is. Jesus said many things about entering the kingdom, you have to take all that he said. He spoke of baptism, which proclaimed our belief in Him, He spoke of walking the narrow path, He spoke of living out His commandments, He spoke of living in His Word, He spoke of selling everything to follow Him, He spoke of hating the world, He spoke of believing in Him even after having being baptized, He spoke of believing without seeing, He spoke of doing unto others what we would liek them to do to us, He spoke of caring for the least of all people, Jesus spoke of many more things about entering the Kingdom.
You speak of entering the kingdom as if your baptism gave you the right to entry. Don’t forget Jesus is the King of Kings and His Home is what you are talking about. Those who are too sure of themselves sometimes are dumbfounded, Jesus will say to them get away from me and they will say that they baptized in His name and healed and did great works.
Entering the kingdom is not about entering some grand place, it is choosing the will of God for all eternity. It is about that final moment, when your soul decides to totally follow God’s will. It is loving the unlovable and hateful, it is denying yourself and following Christ, it is dying so that the other will live. These are not mere words to me, this is my way of life. The kingdom of God is here already when we choose Jesus company and His way above all else. In rough times and in smooth, when we don’t sit and discuss our feelings, but despite our feelings and difficulties we follow Him because He is God.
oh and I am not a theologian, I am a lay woman. Theology is not a bad word, but a subject that tries to understand God and His will.
It is very possible, that Isaiah 9:6 contains ‘prophecy’. In other words, as ministers refer to this passage, and repeat it in their sermons, they fulfill this prophecy.
I understand your explanation, but it does not explain the scripture differences. It simply reiterates the common Christian beliefs (which are supposed to be based on scripture).
I keep getting the feeling, that ‘The Word’ encompasses ‘The Father’s Son (The Lord God Almighty) and His only begotten Son (Jesus)’, which together become Isaiah’s ‘God’. In other words, The Trinity and The Godhead, although related, are two distinct ‘units’. It almost appears, that Christianity has replaced The Lord God Almighty, with His Son Jesus Christ. It seems that the NT scripture points in the direction, that “The Father and The Holy Ghost (which proceedeth from The Father)” are never seen by man, ever. It is The Father’s Son and His Son, that are the only ones seen and heard by man.
what makes you get such “feelings”? what are you basing **your **interpretation on?
I get these ‘feelings’, from the scripture that I posted (that which you originally responded to). Also, it is written, that no man has ever seen The Father (John). It is also written, that no man has ever seen God, which I believe is wrong. Many have seen God. The O/T has many writings that support this. Also, if a person (as it is written) sees Christ sitting on the right hand of God, then they must have seen God.
When you look at scripture, you have to look at it in context and as a whole. When you quoted John 1: 18, it was an incomplete quote. the entire sentence is “No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.” Thereby clarifying that Jesus is God and is in the bosom of the Father, only He has seen Him and He has made Him known. futher, Jesus said He is from above and we are from below. He also said He talks of the things that he has seen.
What OT scripture can you provide to show that others have seen God. Moses saw the burning bush, but when God passed him by, Moses had to cover his face before the majesty of God. The OT says that Moses spoke to God face to face as a man speaks to his friend, but remember, God is a mystery, He is Spirit and even the Cherubim who adore Him, cover their faces with their wings. Besides Moses, who else do you say has “seen” God.
I think you are trying hard to find scripture that will support your ideas and because you can’t find such scripture you dismiss the explanations of others as their beliefs, etc.
God visited with Adam & Eve. God also ‘travelled’ through the camp of the Israelites, covering His face, so that they could not see His face. If it is not God sitting on His throne in Rev chpt 4, then who is it? If it is God, then the ‘John’ that witnessed Rev chpt 4, must have seen God.
Also read Numbers 12:6. You have completely ignored the scriptures that I posted earlier. I state the scriptures that lead me to my ‘feeling’. What makes you believe, that the book of John is ‘correct’? Did John misunderstand, perhaps? His writings contradict the other scriptures that I posted previously.
If Adam and Eve had seen God as He is do you think they would have sinned? God manifested Himself in Jesus. Other than that God’s presence was mostly “seen” in a cloud or a pillar of fire or a burning bush. These are a manifestation of his presence, but not a revelation of Himself. Because, such manifestations don’t teach us about God, they simply put us in awe of him. Jesus, spoke about God, He taught us His ways and His will, therefore Jesus says, to see Him is to see the Father. John, in Rev saw one like man seated on the throne next to God. This is Christ, who chose to keep His resurrected body. Before the incarnation Jesus was Spirit like His Father, but after the incarnation, He took upon Him human flesh. While in this flesh He revealed the Father’s will and destroyed sin and death. Therefore, Jesus now sits as the Son of man, as mediator between God and man in the Heavenly court. He is one person with two natures. He is a divine person, with a divine nature and human nature.
I am sorry. You evidently do not know the scriptures. I gave proof, but you are avoiding what I have written in post #9, and my responses after that posting. Numbers 12:6, refers to The Lord God Almighty, not Jesus Christ. Rev chpt 4, refers to the Lord God Almighty, not Jesus Christ, etc., etc.
Eh… i am not avoiding what you wrote. I gave you proof the Jesus is God by quoting scripture, but apparently you don’t agree with what scripture says about Jesus.
Numbers 12:6: "He said, "Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall speak with him in a dream."
Then why did God the Son come down to earth? The prophets are human beings like us, they cannot understand God as He is, only Jesus can understand God because He is God from God, light from light, true God from true God.
Do you believe that Jesus is God, is what I need to know.
If you read all of my previous postings, you would not have to ask this question. I referred to Isaiah 44:6, and agree with it. This defines ‘God’.
If you were to list all of the scripture that I have listed, and then ignore the rest of the Bible, tell me if the listed scripture complements or contradicts itself.