What is your take on this debate?


#1

I went to the protestant church I usually attend with my mother today and on the way home we kind of got in a debate about the catholic church. She was saying she has been to a few masses and they never have preached about salvation when she was there. She was also saying how she believes only faith in Jesus can get you to heaven and everything else is irrelivent. I told her I agreed with her but that I think the good works idea in the catholic church is evident of a Relationship with god. She agreed however ended it by saying she still believes it is irrelivent, what do you take of this?


#2

If one is of the regeneate, justified by grace through faith, and yet chooses not to follow His commands to care for the least of His children, how can this be irrelevent?

Jon


#3

Took the words right out of my mouth. :thumbsup:


#4

The idea that a Christian can have faith in Christ and yet ignore the commands that Christ and the apostles lay out in the New Covenant betrays the claim of faith in Christ.


#5

Hmmm…She may have forgotten this passage from James 1:

26 Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless. 27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.


#6

=Tx3bro;10237850]I went to the protestant church I usually attend with my mother today and on the way home we kind of got in a debate about the catholic church. She was saying she has been to a few masses and they never have preached about salvation when she was there. She was also saying how she believes only faith in Jesus can get you to heaven and everything else is irrelivent. I told her I agreed with her but that I think the good works idea in the catholic church is evident of a Relationship with god. She agreed however ended it by saying she still believes it is irrelivent, what do you take of this?

A+ for effort:D

But actually Faith is NOT th only thing required for ones salvation [even moms and others like her, who buy into this unbiblical position].

I’ll assume mom attends “a bible church?”

So lets look at SOME of what the bibles teaches:

Faith THROUGH Grace
**Eph.2: 8 **“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God”

**Baptism: **[5] Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

**Obedience **to All of the Commandments
Jesus speaking: “But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments”

**Dying in **the State of Grace W/O mortal sins
1 Jn. 1;8-10
1 Jn. 5: 16-17
John 20:19-23
**This is the ONLY manner APPROVED and Ordained by Jesus

And always: Charity: James chpt. 2

**Proverbs 30:5-6 ** Every word of God is tested; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Add nothing to his words, lest he reprimand you, and you be proved a liar”

**Rom.10: 17 **“So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by [ALL OF THE] the preaching of Christ”

**Eph.3: 9 to 12 ** “And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church [SINGULAR: meaning THE CATHOLIC Church] NO OTHER “CHURCH” EVEN EXISTED FOR ABOUT 1,000 YEARS!

**John.10: 16 **“And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd”

2nd. Peter 1: 20-21 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

Christ gave out only One set of keys to heavens access Mt.16:18-19; and each of these passages of authority and power were from Jesus to ONLY His Apostles alone from who the CC exist and retains its authority:

Mt. 10:1-8
Mt. 16:15-19
Mt. 18:18 to all the Apostles
Mt.28:16-20 causes Succession of Peter to exist
Jn.14:16-17
Jn.20:21-22 fulfilled

Here’s a site to use for easy look up:http://www.drbo.org/chapter/47019.htm

Romans 13: 1-4 “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.

**Acts.20: 28 **“Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God [SINGULAR] which he obtained with the blood of his own Son.”

One MUST use the entire Bible; not just culled passages to actually find God’s TRUTH:thumbsup:


#7

Are there not some Protestant denominations that define faith in Jesus as incorporating good works? I don’t think there is, or can be, a separation of faith and works. Judaism would even go so far as to say that sincere good works are the surest form of faith.


#8

PJM, awesome post. Someone on this forum made an excellent point in a debate regarding "faith alone" — it doesn't even work that way in real life. If you are given a job, you are expected to do the work, or your employer will fire you. What makes anyone think that following Christ, a job if there ever was one, is different?


#9

Sure there is an incorporation of good works in faith. Paul tells that a saving faith is a faith that orks through love. The understanding of sola fide has to do with how we access justification, not how we live the godly life. I often site Luther’s quote:
There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow.

Faith without works is dead, and a dead faith does not save.

Jon


#10

scripturecatholic.com/
is a great resource for finding scriptural references about catholic doctrine and dogma.

For the Faith and works i would recommend the Book of James, chapter 2: 14 onward, the only place in the entire bible where you will find the words faith alone used. usccb.org/bible/james/2

I can’t say much in regard to the homilies, but then again good homilies and true religion aren’t necessarily two things that always go together (unfortunately).


#11

[quote="Tx3bro, post:1, topic:311258"]
I went to the protestant church I usually attend with my mother today and on the way home we kind of got in a debate about the catholic church. She was saying she has been to a few masses and they never have preached about salvation when she was there. She was also saying how she believes only faith in Jesus can get you to heaven and everything else is irrelivent. I told her I agreed with her but that I think the good works idea in the catholic church is evident of a Relationship with god. She agreed however ended it by saying she still believes it is irrelivent, what do you take of this?

[/quote]

Already a lot of good answers....

The comment from your mom "only faith in Jesus can get you to heaven and everything else is irrelevant" is at the core.....
The discussion comes down to just exactly what does your mom mean by "Faith in Christ" and what do you mean by Faith in Christ"...What - does this Faith mean - and require of us.
Is it just "belief" or is there more too it? And if there is more to it, whtat are those things for surely those things are not "irrelevant"....

So probe what your your mom means by "faith in Jesus" and compare that to what the Bible says that faith entails. Since she already says that works are irrelevant you have one place to counter her...James 2:14-18...Since a dead faith cannot save...Works are most definitely NOT irrelevant.

We also have, Mt 7:21-29 which says that not everyone who cries Lord Lord will enter the Kingdom...so it appears that "faith" (belief) is not the only thing necessary.

Further you can turn to Mt 25:31-46 and ask here where "faith" is even mentioned in this passage of the Judgement.

Of course this does not deny the necessity of faith....but it surely undercuts the idea that works are irrelevant.

Peace
James


#12

So faith negates free will?


#13

:thumbsup: Well said


#14

Another reply that makes me glad to be a part of this forum, I learned something new with this post, thank you. Thank you to PJM also for the wonderful message.
Tx3bro, I hope that these kind people have helped you today, they certainly helped me.


#15

Not sure what you mean here, estes. Could you clarify?


#16

You said one who has Faith in Christcwill always follow his commands Thatt would appear to be claiming faith in Jesus Christ trumps free will. If one has the power to accept Jesus at anytime they must also have the power to reject him.


#17

Not will always…but will not ignore or consider irrelevant. When a Christian fails to abide by Christ’s command, he will repent. It is in the Christian’s new nature to follow after Christ. Of course, he is still gripped by sinful flesh and will be imperfect until glorification.

I do not believe that we have the power to “accept Jesus,” prior to the new birth.


#18

=HickmanJosh;10238178]
For the Faith and works i would recommend the Book of James, chapter 2: 14 onward, the only place in the entire bible where you will find the words faith alone used. usccb.org/bible/james/2

I would recommend James, too, particularly to the mom the OP asked about, because James seems especially well designed for the regenerate. It speaks to the law, and to the godly life, and these things are particularly important to the regenerate. Again, Luther, in his commentary on Galatians:

To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,” is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith.

I can’t say much in regard to the homilies, but then again good homilies and true religion aren’t necessarily two things that always go together (unfortunately).

That is unfortunate. Lutheran homiletics, ISTM, is usually pretty good, but I would like to see them regularly elevate the elements and genuflect, as an example to the laity, like Catholic priests do. Perhaps we could share strengths. :wink:

Jon


#19

From the few times I’ve been to a Lutheran liturgy, it seems to vary on where you go. The Lutheran church a few miles away is almost indistinguishable from what you’d experience in a Catholic liturgy. In fact, it probably has more traditional rubrics than most Catholic parishes.


#20

[quote="estesbob, post:12, topic:311258"]
So faith negates free will?

[/quote]

Why would you say this?

Peace
James


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