What really happens at the END?


#1

What really happens at THE END? Really, how are these things lined up, and what am I missing?

The deaths of OT people and prophets
NT saints die
We die
Our descendants die
Purgatory
The Tribulations
Christ comes again
The Rapture
The Judgement (one, or personal and Final?)
The resurrection of the dead
The reception of glorified bodies
The “Millenia” spoken of in Revelation

A lot of stuff, I know, but I always have trouble sorting it all out in a logical way.

Thanks for your input!

Peace,
javelin


#2

the devil gets his come-uppins:thumbsup:

http://www.usfvideocollectibles.com/Space_Ghost_using_Power_Bands.jpg


#3

Sometimes it is helpful to remember that Revelations is a very symbolic book and should be read with this in mind. God is making a point in it, don’t get me wrong, but that doesn’t mean that the specific images that we see in the book have a specific and tangible reference. On the otherhand God might chose to fulfill exactly what the book predicts, many headed beasts, dragon and all. Don’t miss the forest for the trees. What is God trying to say? What do the Church Fathers and Doctors of the Faith teach about it? These will help you understand it better.


#4

[quote=javelin]What really happens at THE END? Really, how are these things lined up, and what am I missing?

The deaths of OT people and prophets
NT saints die
We die
Our descendants die
Purgatory
The Tribulations
Christ comes again
The Rapture
The Judgement (one, or personal and Final?)
The resurrection of the dead
The reception of glorified bodies
The “Millenia” spoken of in Revelation

A lot of stuff, I know, but I always have trouble sorting it all out in a logical way.

Thanks for your input!

Peace,
javelin
[/quote]

What you descibe is more or less the pre-millenial end time error believed by many Protestants. The Catholic position would be more like this: we are now living in the “millenium” which is the Church age, the beginning and promise of the fulfilled Kingdom of God (millenium means “thousand” a highly symbolic number in Scripture which means a long, but indefinite, time). When the fullness of time comes, there will be:

  1. A period of tribulation before the end.
  2. Christ’s Second Coming at which time those Christians still alive will be taken to heaven (the equivalent of the rapture)
  3. The General Judgment at which all mankind will be judged and be sent to their eternal reward-either heaven or hell.
  4. Eternity.

The Catechism says this:

**The Church’s ultimate trial **

**675 ** Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.

676 The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism, especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.

677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection. The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven. God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.

For more information on what the Church teaches on the Last Things, I’d recommend this on-line series of articles:

rosary-center.org/ll57n1.htm
rosary-center.org/ll57n2.htm
rosary-center.org/ll57n3.htm
rosary-center.org/ll57n4.htm

For more information on the erroneous Protestant teaching on the End Times and how to refute it, go to this link:

carl-olson.com/rapture_articles.html


#5

[quote=Fidelis]What you descibe is more or less the pre-millenial end time error believed by many Protestants.
[/quote]

I didn’t think I was describing anything, really. What I wanted to know about was when we and humankind are judged, and what happens then. From what I understand, we are judged when we die, but also at the Final Judgement. I don’t see how that really fits. Where do we “go” between the initial judgement and final? Heaven? Purgatory only? What is the Catholic Church’s view on how those things line up?

I ask because when discussing the Catholic understanding of salvation, I’ve been asked questions about the “big picture” and I’m not sure how it all fits together.

So anything to help would be great.

Peace,
javelin


#6

[quote=javelin]What I wanted to know about was when we and humankind are judged, and what happens then. From what I understand, we are judged when we die, but also at the Final Judgement. I don’t see how that really fits. Where do we “go” between the initial judgement and final? Heaven? Purgatory only? What is the Catholic Church’s view on how those things line up?
[/quote]

When each of us dies, our souls are immediately taken to the presence of God and judged. This is called the Particular Judgment. At this point we begin our eternal destiny. If we are are going to hell, our souls go directly there. If we are deemed worthy of heaven, our souls will go directly to heaven, or if we are going to heaven but are in need of purification, we may go to Purgatory first (everyone in Purgatory will eventually go to heaven). Whatever our fate, our souls will stay there until the end of time.

At the Second Coming at the end of time, those Christians still alive will be taken to heaven (the equivalent of the rapture). Then will occur the General Judgment. At that time the living and the dead will be reunited with their bodies and brought together in God’s presence and judged before all. Those who have already been judged in the Particular Judgment will be brought from wherever their souls were -heaven, hell or Purgatory-- and have their judgment confirmed before all.

After this, time and Purgatory will be no more and all will enter with their souls and bodies into their eternal destiny, either hell or heaven.

This is an extremely bare-bones sketch, so if you want to get the details, see the four articles I linked above.


#7

[quote=javelin]What really happens at THE END? Really, how are these things lined up, and what am I missing?

The deaths of OT people and prophets
NT saints die
We die
Our descendants die
Purgatory
The Tribulations
Christ comes again
The Rapture
The Judgement (one, or personal and Final?)
The resurrection of the dead
The reception of glorified bodies
The “Millenia” spoken of in Revelation

A lot of stuff, I know, but I always have trouble sorting it all out in a logical way.

Thanks for your input!

Peace,
javelin
[/quote]

Perhaps others can correct me if I’m wrong, but I think the Catholic Church holds the amillenialist position, meaning there won’t be a literal 1000 year period of life on earth between the events of Christ’s second coming and the Final Judgment. The amillenialist position is that the duration of the 1000 years is symbolic rather than literal and we are in that period that Revelation speaks of right now.

A key characteristic of the “thousand year” period is that Satan is bound, thrown into the abyss which is sealed over, and that he cannot deceive the nations until the thousand year period is over. Then he will be released for a short time and will make a final attempt to overthrow Christ. Then comes the first resurrection (Rev. 20:5)

Although there is still evil influence and deception on earth, it may be due to the devil’s army of demons rather than Satan himself. We know that Satan was defeated with Christ’s victory on the cross and His resurrection. It could well be that the devil is in the abyss right now. We also know that when the Tribulation starts, it is going to brief period in which the devil appears to take control of the whole world. This seems consistent with the description in Revelation that “after [the thousand years] he must be released for a short time.”

Revelation is tricky, and I’m not an expert in end times. But it’s my understanding that it is not a chronological account from start to finish, but rather a compilation of several visions which may deal with aspects of the same periods of time.


#8

Quote
Posted by Fidelis
"At the Second Coming at the end of time, those Christians still alive will be taken to heaven (the equivalent of the rapture). Then will occur the General Judgment. At that time the living and the dead will be reunited with their bodies and brought together in God’s presence and judged before all. Those who have already been judged in the Particular Judgment will be brought from wherever their souls were -heaven, hell or Purgatory-- and have their judgment confirmed before all."

This is one problem I have with Purgatory - there seems to be no need for it at the Second Coming if those Christians still alive go straight to heaven, why can’t they do that when they die before the Scond Coming?
What am I missing?

P.S. One day I will find out how to put quotes from previous posts in boxes!


#9

The Fat Lady stops singing.


#10

#11

We will ALL face the end of time in our lifetimes…each one of us comes to the end of time as we know it at our deaths. This is precisely why we should live a life of prayer, church, sacraments. Our end comes soon enough, and instead of looking to a huge overall end of everything, it would be far better for everyone on earth if each of us looked to our OWN end at our deaths. That is our end of time as we know it in human terms. All of this rapture, millenial, beast …etc…etc…etc… speculation is fun for some, but wouldn’t it be much better for them if they looked to their own end at death? Didn’t Christ tell us we wouldn’t know when it comes? He was just talking about the end of the world as we know it, he was talking about the end of our LIVES as we know it…no one knows the day but the Father…VERY true for each one of us.


#12

very deep subject…not a lot of people wade into the book of revelation and get very far…i can tell you that in the gospels christ talks about the end times…he talks about wars and rumors of wars…and that when all these things come to pass…look up…for your redemption draweth near…well…we’re living in the last days of the last days…no one can argue with that…the middle east is in turmoil…there is no peace…there will be no peace for a long time…now…the church which are the believers will be raptured before the anti christ is revealed. the anti christ will come in power and bring peace to the middle east…striking a 7 year treaty…all applaud him…the 7 year treaty is the tribulation…3 1/2 years into the treaty he breaks it…and declares he is god…he will make war…and at the end of the seven years will be the battle of armageddon…or megiddo…that is where christ will come and put a stop to the destruction…now in the meantime during the tribulation the church will have the judgement seat of christ where christ will judge us and reward us according to our works…then we will have the marriage supper of the lamb…at the end of the 7 years christ returns and sets up his kingdom and shuts satan up for a thousand years…that is the millennial rain of christ…after a thousand years satan is released again to deceive the nations then the final battle where god throws satan and all his demons into the lake of fire for ever and ever…and we will rain through out all eternity forever with christ…been a while since i been on this subject…hope i got it right…lol…really need to polish up my escatology…

Ceasar


#13

The whole idea of pre trib rapture is unbiblical. To say you KNOW for certainty we are in the ‘end times’ (see what happens when you bring up this subject with protestants?), is to put yourself in the place of God.

YOU are individually in your end times RIGHT this very second…the end times started the SECOND Christ died on the Cross…every ONE of us faces his end times personally, individually the second we die.

This pre trib rapture stuff is made up, and has no place in a discussion on Biblical salvation.


#14

[quote=ceasar]…there will be no peace for a long time…now…the church which are the believers will be raptured before the anti christ is revealed. the anti christ will come in power and bring peace to the middle east…striking a 7 year treaty…all applaud him…the 7 year treaty is the tribulation…3 1/2 years into the treaty he breaks it…and declares he is god…he will make war…and at the end of the seven years will be the battle of armageddon…or megiddo…that is where christ will come and put a stop to the destruction…now in the meantime during the tribulation the church will have the judgement seat of christ where christ will judge us and reward us according to our works…then we will have the marriage supper of the lamb…at the end of the 7 years christ returns and sets up his kingdom and shuts satan up for a thousand years…that is the millennial rain of christ…after a thousand years satan is released again to deceive the nations then the final battle where god throws satan and all his demons into the lake of fire for ever and ever…and we will rain through out all eternity forever with christ…been a while since i been on this subject…hope i got it right…lol…really need to polish up my escatology…

Ceasar
[/quote]

What you described here at the beginning, especially, is a pre-tribulation rapture of the Chruch, which is against Catholic doctrine. At least that much I’m sure of. And I think your description of the 1000 years being after the Second Coming, with Satan then coming back prior to the FInal Judgement is also not taught by the Church. No offense intended at all, but do you have a protestant background, or are you currently protestant? That would certainly explain where you got this interpretation of the end times.

Peace,
javelin


#15

[quote=Fidelis]When each of us dies, our souls are immediately taken to the presence of God and judged. This is called the Particular Judgment.

At the Second Coming at the end of time, those Christians still alive will be taken to heaven (the equivalent of the rapture). Then will occur the General Judgment. At that time the living and the dead will be reunited with their bodies and brought together in God’s presence and judged before all. Those who have already been judged in the Particular Judgment will be brought from wherever their souls were -heaven, hell or Purgatory-- and have their judgment confirmed before all.

After this, time and Purgatory will be no more and all will enter with their souls and bodies into their eternal destiny, either hell or heaven.

This is an extremely bare-bones sketch, so if you want to get the details, see the four articles I linked above.
[/quote]

Thank you for this info – this is precisely what I was looking for.

If we have a particular judgement, why the need of a final judgement? Also, I’ve never heard that people who end up in hell after their personal judgement will get taken back out of hell for the final judgement. I thought once you went there, there was NO coming back.

Peace,
javelin


#16

[quote=javelin]If we have a particular judgement, why the need of a final judgement? Also, I’ve never heard that people who end up in hell after their personal judgement will get taken back out of hell for the final judgement. I thought once you went there, there was NO coming back.
[/quote]

The fact that ALL will be gathered before God at the end of time is what is known as the Great White Throne Judgement, described in Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 20:11-15.

The purpose is to show to all the mercy and justice of God- mercy to those who sinned, but repented, justice to those who had a chance to repent but would not.

For more info, check out those links I provided, plus this one that is specifically about the General Judgment:

rosary-center.org/ll49n6.htm
THE LAST DAY AND THE GENERAL JUDGMEMENT


#17

Actually, the church wasn’t always Amillennial as most Catholics are led to believe.But some were as Augustine and Origin. Some early fathers were very millennial. Justin Martyr and Irenaeus were two. I personally belive in a future millenium. The devil is hardly bound from influencing the nations. He is worse then ever. Look at the immorality in our own nation and wars so frequent.

                          God already knows the life we lead and will lead til we die. When we leave this body we either be pulled down to hell by demons or pass through the light and the tunnel. At the end of that tunnel we will each be given sort of a visual review of our life. The guardian of the light will will then deem what is necessary, before our souls can enter heaven and be reunited with our loved ones.

                            But the resurrection is a different matter. Only those who have been faithful, will be caught up to be with the Lord and will receive immortal, incorruptable bodies. All Christians who have NOT been faithful will be left, as the parable of the ten virgins so aptly reveals. As Justin Martyr wrote, Jesus will come down and Jerusalem will be rebuilt and Christ will rule there. As Zehariah 14 states, he will be King over all the earth in that day. All nations shall come up to Jerusalem to serve him.

                              There was a great saint in the church who long ago fortold how the Antichrist will come to power in the world and he will burn Rome and the church. Christians will once again be persecuted and many put to death. I'm sorry, but I can't for the life of me recall his name. I read his work many years ago. Also earth itself will rebell against mankind. There will be great earthquakes and coastal cities will be flooded and disapear in a weeks time. 

                                One poster said the woman of Revelation 12 is Mary. I am aware that this is a modern interpretation, but a couple of the early church fathers held that the woman was the church and not Mary. Also the Catholic NAB translation also interprets the woman as the church in their footnotes. There simply was no early church father who interpreted the woman of Revelation 12 as Mary. Not one.

#18

The Woman is Mary,she gave birth to the Son. who will rule,Christ started His church.And when you look at Genesis the WOMAN is Mary as well.


#19

Liza4

         No Liza. that is so untrue. NO EARLY CHURCH FATHER wrote what you state. Two church fathers wrote the woman in Revelation 12 is "the church" and not Mary. The Catholic NAB in it's footnotes also says the woman is the church. Mary is not mentioned in the Genesis account. Most bible translations say, HE shall bruise the head of the snake" and not she. It was Christ who overcame the devil by his death and resurrection.  :)

#20

[quote=piety101]One poster said the woman of Revelation 12 is Mary. I am aware that this is a modern interpretation, but a couple of the early church fathers held that the woman was the church and not Mary. Also the Catholic NAB translation also interprets the woman as the church in their footnotes. There simply was no early church father who interpreted the woman of Revelation 12 as Mary. Not one.
[/quote]

Only if you consider 1000 years “modern”:

“The sun contains permanent colour and splendour; whereas the moon’s brightness is unpredictable and changeable, for it never stays the same. It is quite right, then, for Mary to be depicted as clothed with the sun, for she entered the profundity of divine wisdom much more further than one could concieve.” (De B. Virgine, 2. Quoted in the Navarre Bible Commentary)

St. Bernard, considered the last of the Church Fathers, held this belief around the year 1100. Who knows how old the interpretation was before that?


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