What’s the most irritating pro-abortion argument you’ve heard?

I hope you recognize that a lot of us Catholics are bothered by that logic too.

Except I haven’t done that. Contraception is available here in the U.S. and nobody is talking about restrictions anyways so no one is being denied anything.

A lot of folks of any stripe are bothered by that.

When the government made the blunder of involving the concept of marriage in any of its policy-making, it also created an obligation to define “marriage” for its own purposes.

In a nation where all men are created equal and church and state have a fence between them, there isn’t a good reason to bar the gay folks from obtaining marriage in the eyes of government.

You, individually, may not have made such a claim. But a substantial portion (maybe as high as 10%) of American Catholics would suggest that BC be forbidden as well.

It’s still not enough to actually do anything so it sounds more like a bogeyman.

Hey Freddy!

Been away from the forums for a bit. Glad to see you’re still fighting the good fight.

Hope you and yours are well.

'We asked Carl Wahren, a family planning and population expert, who has worked on population topics over 50 years (at IPPF, OECD and the UN), about the attitudes of subsequent popes. Being involved in family planning programs since their beginnings in several parts of the world, Carl has strong opinions on the role of the Catholic Church in population-related topics. In an interview in 2019, he said: “ *John Paul II made absolutely sure that not a single Catholic person, layman or priest ever should hand out a condom even if AIDS struck Africa like a torrent, and the same thing with other contraception….and then pope Benedict XVI followed… These two popes, the one after the other, made life miserable and put all these nuns and priests in an agonizing fight with their own consciousness, since they had to stop handing out contraception to poor women with eight kids, or to people with HIV.https://overpopulation-project.com/the-catholic-church-and-contraception/

Yeah, still trying to convince myself I’m right and everyone else is wrong…

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It sounds more like the rest of the world is at fault if out of all of them, the one group that doesn’t support contraception has to pitch in.

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I think you’re misreading the situation. It’s the Catholics are the one group who are actively working to prevent the accesibility of contraception. On religious grounds. Everyone else seems to think it’s the easiest solution to solving the problems.

The excerpt you posted only mention a prohibition on Catholics otherwise literally any else is allowed to give them. Accessibility seems fine unless the secular organizations are somehow failing.

So it’s fine to issue contracepetion? You have no problem in people having access to it?

I take issue to it, but that doesn’t really have an effect practically speaking so it doesn’t matter.

Without a doubt. I always marveled at the religious anti-gay agenda and wondered how they could deny this simple truth. Did the US Declaration of Independence say all men are entitled to “the pursuit of happiness” UNLESS they are gay?

It’s a common conservative meme to say the government needs to get “out of the marriage business”. This is all well and good until reality sets in and real-world problems arise including legal issues with children, both biological but especially non-biological (adoption, step-children), care of their parents, asset management, health issues, and financial burdens. Even if you try to manipulate the legal system to adjust to such issues (ie, co-habitation laws, living wills, and so forth) the massive inefficiencies such processes would introduce would make such policies unimplementable and ultimately useless. In addition, marriage as an institution is critical for the maintenance and long-term sustainability of a society. For some reason, religious people think same-sex marriage proponents are against traditional marriage. I never understood that reasoning.

I think you vastly underestimate the impact of religion on a society. Children indoctrinated from birth, the threat of eternal torture, pressure from family and society, the fear of the unknown, and so forth.
Are you saying that when a missionary goes to Africa and tells someone that they will burn for eternity if they use condoms, it has no effect at all?

What if they got AIDS after they were married through no fault of their own? Do you disagree with Pope Francis’ implication that use of condoms in these and similar cases is a moral good?

Nothing is more tragic than turning a blind eye to the failures of the Church.
The antiquated position, especially as professed to the vulnerable, of the Church regarding birth control will go down in history as one of the great failures of the institution.
I ask you a simple question. What is the greater sin, the use of a condom or knowingly spreading a horrific disease? And do you really think use of birth control is a mortal sin and worthy of eternal torment in Hell?

If they aren’t following the rest of the Churches teaching on sexuality, then yes.

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I find such reasoning indefensible. Are you saying that unless a Catholic follows each and every rule put forth down by the Church, its teachings have no impact?

So you agree with Pope Francis when he implies use of condoms is morally good for those that are having sex outside of marriage?

I find it strange if somebody is willing to have sex outside of marriage but not use birth control because it’s a mortal sin.

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Because having sex is human nature.

The reasoning is totally foreign to me as a parent.
Consider these two scenarios, when my kids go to college, I tell them:

  • Don’t drink alcohol. It will cause nothing but problems. But if you lose your way and do for some reason - no matter what, never, ever drive. Call me in the middle of the night. I’ll get you. Your safety and well-being is more important to me than my sleep.

  • Don’t drink alcohol. It will cause nothing but problems. And don’t ever call me in the middle of the night either. That’s just as bad. I will burn you with fire if you do so.

You really think the latter is being a better parent? The same applies to sex and condoms. I mean, the Catholic position is absurd.

Your analogy has them being burned either way. So being willing to commit one mortal sin but not another still doesn’t make sense.

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