What should I do here?


#1

Hi hi :D

Well, absolutely bizarre situation. I am on a Catholic commitee of students that basically organizes everything Catholic in town (its a student town). There are 5 of us on the Comm, and our roles are different but we basically do the same stuff. Anyway I was voted on to the Comm after being asked to run, which I was glad about because I had issues with the Mass.

So anyway, a few months ago at a Liturgy meeting that I called I brought up my issues. People shot me down. (Note: issues aren't important here, discussed them in Liturgy section months back). So I gathered my resources (Encylcicals, GIRM, etc) and showed why and what I think needs changing. Everybody agreed. Except one person.

He sent me a rather vitriolic email. Basically, without judgement, he is poorly catechized. He asked me why I am so "ancient" and "addicted to Rome" and spoke about me kind of badly and questionned the writings of the Popes, but I just showed him the facts and explained our religion is ancient and Rome (Vatican, rather) is Rome for a reason, and Pope is Pope for a reason. Anyway I wasn't too affected I was just like well a slight disagreement whatever.

Now, someone on the Comm was telling me how this guy is depressed, off-ish and unwilling to continue. And I was like, well, shame, why. And he told me its because "He doesn't like you". I thought to myself, well, thats pretty pathetic. But I told this guy that if the dude has a problem he needs to speak to me. I am a pretty big guy and to be fair I can come off as, um, 'hardcore' and unapproachable and I am a 'mans man' in that I am upfront about things etc etc. From what I know, this guy who doesn't like me, his dad is a laicized Priest (which, I dunno, might add something).

So anyway. The Comm member wants me to have a "forum" with this guy who doesn't like me and include our Priest. I laughed and said thats absolutely ridiculous. I told him I have nothing against the guy, and I would be more than willing to chat if he just mans up and chats to me. But the "forum" (me, priest, guy who hates me) is just stupid, unecessary and dramatic. I said that if the guy doesn't like me then he needs to speak to me and its got nothing to do with anybody else. If its my views then he needs to read the GIRM, a few Papal writings, and the Catechism. I was told to "think about it" even after I said no.

So what should I do? Should I be the one and go to the guy who doesnt like me - since he seems to not want to. Should I do the "forum" thing? What should!


#2

I think you should agree to attend the forum. Having another person present is evidently seen as a means of diffusing any awkwardness or strong feeling which might arise if it were just you and the other student.

What have you got to lose? If your arguments are correct, and the documents relevant, then it will be obvious. By not agreeing to have a third person present, you are making it too personal, and, worse, it would appear as if you are afraid that your views will not stand scrutiny.

The priest will see his role as mediator, as helping to sort out any misunderstandings. At the very least, he will help you both agree to disagree.

As a matter of interest, why did you post this in the Family Forum?


#3

[quote="paperwight66, post:2, topic:216289"]
I think you should agree to attend the forum. Having another person present is evidently seen as a means of diffusing any awkwardness or strong feeling which might arise if it were just you and the other student.

What have you got to lose? If your arguments are correct, and the documents relevant, then it will be obvious. By not agreeing to have a third person present, you are making it too personal, and, worse, it would appear as if you are afraid that your views will not stand scrutiny.

The priest will see his role as mediator, as helping to sort out any misunderstandings. At the very least, he will help you both agree to disagree.

As a matter of interest, why did you post this in the Family Forum?

[/quote]

But it has nothing to do with the priest, that was my point. Know what I mean?

My arguments were correct, and changes were made, and we moved on and everybody is happier. Thats why I was like, well, if its me you don't like - speak to me, if its the teaching of the Church - then read the cited stuff, because your argument isn't with me its with the Church.

And while I see what you are saying, how would it be too personal? He doesn't like me - which for some reason is a major problem in his life (though I think he is being dramatic). Not liking me is pretty personal, as personal as it gets. Furthermore he told people, divulging his personal views openly, without coming to me. In my opinion, having a priest there would be unbelievably silly. Just so he can tell me why he doesn't like me. Or why he doesn't agree with Church teaching. Actually - to be honest I am afraid my views won't stand up to scrutiny, because unfortunately our priests here are not very orthodox and lax, so if I say "well, actually, one cannot do X" I'm afraid there might be more tension if a Priest says "Well I don't mind doing it". Then I'll have to start showing him documents too and possibly upset him! Then it just compounds.

All because one person isn't willing to speak to me? Just seems... silly.


#4

Jesus,our Lords peace be whit You.
Many times I wish there would be a 11 commandment: "Thouh shall not argue". What is moore importent,to be rigth or to be rigth and be sure all know You are? If You ansvered this question right,my advice is: ignore them.
When it comes to religion,everyone has his/her wiew,and yet there is only one,the truth from the Gospels. Beeing right all the time wont make You a better christian,beeing wrong once in a while will.


#5

I agree you should have a forum with the priest and this man. Why? Well, first, it may alieve this man's anxiety. Second, it would be very kind to do this to help this man feel better. Maybe you intimadate him.? Third, what do you have to lose? Fourth, by refusing to meet with him it looks as if your arguments won't hold up to scrutiny with this priest. Fifth, it also looks like you don't care how this man feels, and as a Christian, I'm sure you do care.


#6

[quote="NewsTheMan, post:3, topic:216289"]
But it has nothing to do with the priest, that was my point. Know what I mean?

My arguments were correct, and changes were made, and we moved on and everybody is happier. Thats why I was like, well, if its me you don't like - speak to me, if its the teaching of the Church - then read the cited stuff, because your argument isn't with me its with the Church.

And while I see what you are saying, how would it be too personal? He doesn't like me - which for some reason is a major problem in his life (though I think he is being dramatic). Not liking me is pretty personal, as personal as it gets. Furthermore he told people, divulging his personal views openly, without coming to me. In my opinion, having a priest there would be unbelievably silly. Just so he can tell me why he doesn't like me. Or why he doesn't agree with Church teaching. Actually - to be honest I am afraid my views won't stand up to scrutiny, because unfortunately our priests here are not very orthodox and lax, so if I say "well, actually, one cannot do X" I'm afraid there might be more tension if a Priest says "Well I don't mind doing it". Then I'll have to start showing him documents too and possibly upset him! Then it just compounds.

All because one person isn't willing to speak to me? Just seems... silly.

[/quote]

But you're on a committee, its not a dictatorship. To be honest, you do come off sounding a bit intimidating with "its my way or the highway" kind of attitude. Maybe God is teaching you a lesson in humility? Shouldn't reconciliation be the goal? And what better way to reach that reconciliation with a fellow committee member than with a meeting with you two and the priest? You can't lose anything by going to the forum, if anything you might gain more respect from the fellow that has a problem with you, AND from the other committee members. By not going to the forum, you're coming across as someone that is very difficult to work with, I don't think that's the kind of reputation you really want is it?


#7

[quote="PatriceA, post:6, topic:216289"]
But you're on a committee, its not a dictatorship. To be honest, you do come off sounding a bit intimidating with "its my way or the highway" kind of attitude. Maybe God is teaching you a lesson in humility? Shouldn't reconciliation be the goal? And what better way to reach that reconciliation with a fellow committee member than with a meeting with you two and the priest? You can't lose anything by going to the forum, if anything you might gain more respect from the fellow that has a problem with you, AND from the other committee members. By not going to the forum, you're coming across as someone that is very difficult to work with, I don't think that's the kind of reputation you really want is it?

[/quote]

I see. But I don't think thats the point. My way or the highway is not the issue here - if it were I would expect all Comm members to take issue with me.

People inside and outside the comm agreed to my suggestions and they were welcomed. He disagreed and tried to argue. Then he went on to talk badly of me, and "suffer" from his not liking me.

Yes, reconciliation is the goal. But then I think.. well, what reconciliation? I have never done anything, said anything, etc. I don't even not like him. It's he who has the personal problem with me. Hence I think it isn't a Comm issue. I do see your point - but I'd like to say that in actualy fact it is he who is difficult to work with and rather inactive in the committee.

I am leaning towards doing it, for the sake of, well, 'reconciliation'. But it just seems to utterly dramatic and childish. Like, seriously? You can't even approach me? You get someone else to tell me you don't like me? Would it not be easier to drop me a mail to say Hey X and X I disagree with but thats cool because its all for God's glory and I got nothing against you. I don't see the big deal - this is what I'm getting at in a way.


#8

[quote="NewsTheMan, post:7, topic:216289"]
I see. But I don't think thats the point. My way or the highway is not the issue here - if it were I would expect all Comm members to take issue with me.

People inside and outside the comm agreed to my suggestions and they were welcomed. He disagreed and tried to argue. Then he went on to talk badly of me, and "suffer" from his not liking me.

Yes, reconciliation is the goal. But then I think.. well, what reconciliation? I have never done anything, said anything, etc. I don't even not like him. It's he who has the personal problem with me. Hence I think it isn't a Comm issue. I do see your point - but I'd like to say that in actualy fact it is he who is difficult to work with and rather inactive in the committee.

I am leaning towards doing it, for the sake of, well, 'reconciliation'. But it just seems to utterly dramatic and childish. Like, seriously? You can't even approach me? You get someone else to tell me you don't like me? Would it not be easier to drop me a mail to say Hey X and X I disagree with but thats cool because its all for God's glory and I got nothing against you. I don't see the big deal - this is what I'm getting at in a way.

[/quote]

Well you have the chance to be the bigger man in the situation then. And the outcome might be that you learn a little bit more about yourself and you might even learn a little bit more about the other guy. Who knows, you might even form some kind of civil relationship that could lead to a friendship somewhere down the line. Have you prayed about it and asked God what lesson he is trying to teach you in this situation?


#9

I don't think you need to do anything differently than you are doing now.

A committee generally works through consensus or majority vote, and that's fine for most things. BUT the liturgy is NOT up for voting. The Church tells us what is acceptable and we are to obey the Church. You were correct to back up your position with authentic Church teaching.

I agree with you that a "forum" with the guy and a priest is a bunch of junior high drama waiting to happen. You say this is a student town, so I assume college. So, it doesn't surprise me that drama runs high in such a committee.

I do think you should consider talking to the guy one on one away from other committee members. Make sure he knows you are approachable, that you aren't trying to dominate everything, and that you have nothing against him. Try to mend the fence and get along, but also know that not everyone is going to like you and you aren't going to like everyone and sometimes you just have to move past it to work towards the common goal. It's good training for the business world where you can disagree but still work together.

A "man's man" sometimes has to be the *bigger *person. Think about it.


#10

It dosn't seem bizarre at all. You have gotten yourself into a situation because of your ego. You have not handled things in a merciful way, and while others can understand and accept it this man cannot.

He probably feels too intimidated to speak to you alone and wants the priest there for his comfort. Maybe he can't talk to you man to man because he's not man enough...or because you're not behaving like a gentelman but a caveman who's reveling in his victory.


#11

[quote="purplesunshine, post:10, topic:216289"]
It dosn't seem bizarre at all. You have gotten yourself into a situation because of your ego. You have not handled things in a merciful way, and while others can understand and accept it this man cannot.

[/quote]

Oh, waaaaa.

Someone standing up for what is right is suddenly ego.

[quote="purplesunshine, post:10, topic:216289"]
He probably feels too intimidated to speak to you alone and wants the priest there for his comfort. Maybe he can't talk to you man to man because he's not man enough...or because you're not behaving like a gentelman but a caveman who's reveling in his victory.

[/quote]

The OP clarifies that this person did NOT ask to speak with him or have a forum with a priest. It is *other people *who thought that up and are pressuring him to have this three-person sit down.

As he said, it's drama that others are stirring up.


#12

[quote="1ke, post:11, topic:216289"]
Oh, waaaaa.

Someone standing up for what is right is suddenly ego.

The OP clarifies that this person did NOT ask to speak with him or have a forum with a priest. It is *other people *who thought that up and are pressuring him to have this three-person sit down.

As he said, it's drama that others are stirring up.

[/quote]

And perhaps if the other people on the committe are the ones that came up with the idea of the forum, there is much more going on than even the OP is aware of. Maybe the other people on the committee feel the priest needs to be brought into the situation for a reason.


#13

[quote="1ke, post:9, topic:216289"]
I don't think you need to do anything differently than you are doing now.

A committee generally works through consensus or majority vote, and that's fine for most things. BUT the liturgy is NOT up for voting. The Church tells us what is acceptable and we are to obey the Church. You were correct to back up your position with authentic Church teaching.

I agree with you that a "forum" with the guy and a priest is a bunch of junior high drama waiting to happen. You say this is a student town, so I assume college. So, it doesn't surprise me that drama runs high in such a committee.

I do think you should consider talking to the guy one on one away from other committee members. Make sure he knows you are approachable, that you aren't trying to dominate everything, and that you have nothing against him. Try to mend the fence and get along, but also know that not everyone is going to like you and you aren't going to like everyone and sometimes you just have to move past it to work towards the common goal. It's good training for the business world where you can disagree but still work together.

A "man's man" sometimes has to be the *bigger *person. Think about it.

[/quote]

Thanks 1ke, makes sense. Thats exactly what I was thinking - we disagreed, but I didn't not like him for it? Or talk about him badly or claim (months later) that I was upset because of him? I mean, I could sense he was off but I never ever said anything to him besides the odd "Sup" at a meeting. If our relationship is to be purely "professional" (which is a pity) then we shoul be able to carry on!

[quote="purplesunshine, post:10, topic:216289"]
It dosn't seem bizarre at all. You have gotten yourself into a situation because of your ego. You have not handled things in a merciful way, and while others can understand and accept it this man cannot.

He probably feels too intimidated to speak to you alone and wants the priest there for his comfort. Maybe he can't talk to you man to man because he's not man enough...or because you're not behaving like a gentelman but a caveman who's reveling in his victory.

[/quote]

Oh right. Thanks, I appreciate the contribution. But where was I egotistical? I was shot down for suggesting small mass corrections, so I went back and got my documents, presented them, all but one agreed, one sent rather vitriolic email to me that indicated his lack of catechesis [for example he told me (paraphrased) "I don't know what Church you belong to, but the Church I belong to certainly isn't answerable to Rome], so I sent an email back telling him that I think he should take it up further if he thinks he's wrong, and that was that skip forward a few months and apparently his dislike of me is causing him to be depressed (???) and he hates me and feels the need to tell people such. How is that my ego? Excuse my words but possibly its his ego?

As for suggesting I am a caveman, I am close to reporting you for that comment. Where did you pull that from? That's pure slander. Gentlemen - as I know them - stand up for what is right, and speak to each other like men. I haven't behaved like a caveman. I have done absolutely nothing - which is why I posted here out of confusion.

[quote="1ke, post:11, topic:216289"]
Oh, waaaaa.

Someone standing up for what is right is suddenly ego.

The OP clarifies that this person did NOT ask to speak with him or have a forum with a priest. It is *other people *who thought that up and are pressuring him to have this three-person sit down.

As he said, it's drama that others are stirring up.

[/quote]

Thanks, yes you understood. The guy who has a problem with me has not spoken to me. He has instead gone behind my back, and the other people suggested it. Now, to be honest, these other people do have a flair for the dramatic, so thats why I am wondering what to do, weighing up the pro's and cons on a (fairly..) objective place.

[quote="PatriceA, post:12, topic:216289"]
And perhaps if the other people on the committe are the ones that came up with the idea of the forum, there is much more going on than even the OP is aware of. Maybe the other people on the committee feel the priest needs to be brought into the situation for a reason.

[/quote]

What reason could that be? I would happily do it - because as I said I know I come off as intimidating. However, I am actually rather the opposite. I invited everybody from the Comm over for coffee two times (the guy who apparently hates me too) and he didn't come once. The Comm members know me, and they all acknowledge that there is no reason for this guy not to like me.

Thats why I laughed when the suggestion was made. I was like... wait what do you think is going to happen that you need to bring in a Priest? What an utter waste of time for someone to say "I don't like you because you told me I was wrong" where I will say "Yeah, sorry if it came off badly, but I believe in that instance you were wrong, but there is no reason to dislike me, because I don't dislike you at all" and then finish.


#14

Maybe instead of a drama filled forum you could just have a meeting with him, you, and the priest to go over these things. By the way what angle is he coming from - is he an Eastern Rite or an SSPX? I am just wondering since he is involved with a Catholic group but does not seem to be in line with Rome.

Also, what do you mean by his father is a laicized priest? Did his father leave the priesthood? Is he a deacon and this man is trying to make him sound bigger than he is? Is he a spiritual assistant in a lay order and your friend has a lack of understanding for this? Just wondering it may help you understand better.

Remember it is better to seek understanding than to be understood.

Or if everyone is that heck-bent on having forum don't keep it to these issues - make the priest the moderator put a few people on the panel and have an apologetics forum on the issues, charge admission, and let the fur fly. Donate the money for tithing, your organizations needs, or some charity. Maybe somebody will learn from it.


#15

[quote="joandarc2008, post:14, topic:216289"]
Maybe instead of a drama filled forum you could just have a meeting with him, you, and the priest to go over these things. By the way what angle is he coming from - is he an Eastern Rite or an SSPX? I am just wondering since he is involved with a Catholic group but does not seem to be in line with Rome.

Also, what do you mean by his father is a laicized priest? Did his father leave the priesthood? Is he a deacon and this man is trying to make him sound bigger than he is? Is he a spiritual assistant in a lay order and your friend has a lack of understanding for this? Just wondering it may help you understand better.

Remember it is better to seek understanding than to be understood.

[/quote]

Nope. Catholic. Bear in mind that in South Africa the Evangelical/Pentecostal tradition is very strong and many Catholics here grew up with that and poor Catechesis has lead to that mindset of "the mass is my worship service, and mine to change as I see fit". He's a Latin Rite Catholic.

I don't know the details, but a Comm member did mention that his father is a laicized priest. I am not sure if he left, or was asked to leave (does that happen?). The dude that doesn't like me is just your normal college student I guess :)

"it is better to seek understanding than to be understood"

Thanks! That is very helpful :o I forget that sometimes!


#16

I'm thinking the proposed forum might just add more drama to the situation, without changing anyone's mind. You brought up the Church's rules on liturgy, he made it known that he disagrees, there's no reason it can't end right there.


#17

[quote="NewsTheMan, post:15, topic:216289"]
Nope. Catholic. Bear in mind that in South Africa the Evangelical/Pentecostal tradition is very strong and many Catholics here grew up with that and poor Catechesis has lead to that mindset of "the mass is my worship service, and mine to change as I see fit". He's a Latin Rite Catholic.

I don't know the details, but a Comm member did mention that his father is a laicized priest. I am not sure if he left, or was asked to leave (does that happen?). The dude that doesn't like me is just your normal college student I guess :)

"it is better to seek understanding than to be understood"

Thanks! That is very helpful :o I forget that sometimes!

[/quote]

We all forget -that is why St. Francis is a Saint and we are still mere humans trying to find our way depending on each other and the help of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. :thumbsup:


#18

1) Pray to the Holy Spirit.

2) Pray to St. Michael the Archangel.

3) Go ye forth to the forum and evangelize! This is your big chance in the spiritual battle to do some good, charitably of course! :)

Here is a pertinent Bible verse for you to consider. I saw it posted by another CAF member (william3) earlier today, and it applies just beautifully here:

(Gospel, Lk 12:8,11-12)
I tell you, if anyone openly declares himself for me in the presence of human beings, the Son of man will declare himself for him in the presence of God's angels...
When they take you before synagogues and magistrates and authorities, do not worry about how to defend yourselves or what to say, because when the time comes, the Holy Spirit will teach you what you should say.

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brethren. - Amen

:blessyou:


#19

[quote="NewsTheMan, post:13, topic:216289"]
Thanks 1ke, makes sense. Thats exactly what I was thinking - we disagreed, but I didn't not like him for it? Or talk about him badly or claim (months later) that I was upset because of him? I mean, I could sense he was off but I never ever said anything to him besides the odd "Sup" at a meeting. If our relationship is to be purely "professional" (which is a pity) then we shoul be able to carry on!

Oh right. Thanks, I appreciate the contribution. But where was I egotistical? I was shot down for suggesting small mass corrections, so I went back and got my documents, presented them, all but one agreed, one sent rather vitriolic email to me that indicated his lack of catechesis [for example he told me (paraphrased) "I don't know what Church you belong to, but the Church I belong to certainly isn't answerable to Rome], so I sent an email back telling him that I think he should take it up further if he thinks he's wrong, and that was that skip forward a few months and apparently his dislike of me is causing him to be depressed (???) and he hates me and feels the need to tell people such. How is that my ego? Excuse my words but possibly its his ego?

As for suggesting I am a caveman, I am close to reporting you for that comment. Where did you pull that from? That's pure slander. Gentlemen - as I know them - stand up for what is right, and speak to each other like men. I haven't behaved like a caveman. I have done absolutely nothing - which is why I posted here out of confusion.

Thanks, yes you understood. The guy who has a problem with me has not spoken to me. He has instead gone behind my back, and the other people suggested it. Now, to be honest, these other people do have a flair for the dramatic, so thats why I am wondering what to do, weighing up the pro's and cons on a (fairly..) objective place.

What reason could that be? I would happily do it - because as I said I know I come off as intimidating. However, I am actually rather the opposite. I invited everybody from the Comm over for coffee two times (the guy who apparently hates me too) and he didn't come once. The Comm members know me, and they all acknowledge that there is no reason for this guy not to like me.

Thats why I laughed when the suggestion was made. I was like... wait what do you think is going to happen that you need to bring in a Priest? What an utter waste of time for someone to say "I don't like you because you told me I was wrong" where I will say "Yeah, sorry if it came off badly, but I believe in that instance you were wrong, but there is no reason to dislike me, because I don't dislike you at all" and then finish.

[/quote]

I don't what reason it could be that they suggested the forum, have you asked them directly why they think a forum is necessary? We only have your side of the story to go by and maybe they have the flair for the dramatic or maybe they don't, perhaps that's just your take on the matter. Maybe they are just trying to work it out so both members of the committe have an equal voice and the priest can hear both sides of the story. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain, both of you do by being able to discuss it in a neutral setting.


#20

Oh right. Thanks, I appreciate the contribution. But where was I egotistical? I was shot down for suggesting small mass corrections, so I went back and got my documents, presented them, all but one agreed, one sent rather vitriolic email to me that indicated his lack of catechesis [for example he told me (paraphrased) "I don’t know what Church you belong to, but the Church I belong to certainly isn’t answerable to Rome], so I sent an email back telling him that I think he should take it up further if he thinks he’s wrong, and that was that skip forward a few months and apparently his dislike of me is causing him to be depressed (???) and he hates me and feels the need to tell people such. How is that my ego? Excuse my words but possibly its his ego?

As for suggesting I am a caveman, I am close to reporting you for that comment. Where did you pull that from? That’s pure slander. Gentlemen - as I know them - stand up for what is right, and speak to each other like men. I haven’t behaved like a caveman. I have done absolutely nothing - which is why I posted here out of confusion.

It’s in the way you present the story. You corrected a wrong. That was good but you continually present him as the annoying guy who didn’t agree. That’s why it seems like your ego. Absolutely no compassion for his point of view.

It’s likely in your presentation that is causing the problem. He no longer feels comfortable and even though he was wrong in his statement you continue to just say “I’m right I’m right I’m right” which is true, but it isn’t the point. The point is that he is somehow completely uncomfortable with you and your approach and since he is outnumbered wants to discuss it. I could be that he has gone to the preist and the priest has answered with a bunch of “i dunno…ask NTM” and when the guy figured he couldn’t asked the priest…or the guy was whining about feeling depressed and ostracized and the priest suggested that you all meet.

What gets me about this is that this is basically a meeting with a priest and another person. A PRIEST. He’s not having you talk to him with a buddy, or a counceller or a poliece officer. And the priest has agreed to it, so unless the priest is a complete moron (which you haven’t thusfar indicated) then I can’t see how this is any more than a conversation with a witness.

Actually, in the Bible it says that if your neighbor/brother has wronged you go to him. (which he did) and if he dosn’t than bring along a friend. He has done wrong by spreading his hate to others…so that’s wrong. But for crying out loud just meet with the guy.

You’re close to reporting me…that’s a lark. The mods would more likely tell you to bug off and not annoy them. I stand by my caveman remark. You do seem more like a caveman grunting over killing a attacking racoon and expecting adulation than a gentelman who corrected a wrong and cares about the impact he makes on others.


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