What should I say?


#1

Hello all. I am discussing faith and works with this gentleman and I am looking for some help if any of ya’ll would be so kind as to lend a helping hand in what I should tell him I would be ever so thankfull.

OkieGrasshopper wrote:
Montie, where in James does he present “works” in the context of “works of Love”. You may be talking about “works of Love”. However, the passage to which you refer us does not make that distinction.
When Paul talked about “works”, he sometimes referred to works as they relate to the Law, or works, in general. In both cases Paul was referring to “works” for which a person might want to take credit. “For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9) In this passage, Paul had the perfect opportunity to say that salvation was the result of “faith+works” or added “of love”, but he didn’t. Moreover, the Law was not given until Moses. Therefore, what is the context of “works” when Paul referred to Abraham in Romans 4:2-5?

Montie, what is your specific response to my questions and, specifically, Ephesians 2:8-9?

Montie Claunch wrote:
Dear Mr. OkieGrasshopper,
I agrree that one needs faith to be saved and that one can not “earn” salvation.

The grasshopper understands that you agree to the fact that “faith” is a component required for salvation. . .however, you also assert that “works” is a component of salvation. Yet, none of the Scriptures to which you refer validate your claim. Scripture does establish that God graciously saves his people through faith. Moreover, Scripture specifically instructs that “works” (though they will always accompany salvation. . .see James 2) are excluded as a contributer to the salvic process, “. . .not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.” (Ephesians 2:9) Montie, the distinction that you fail to understand (or, perhaps, reject) is that Scripture speaks of “works” being evidence (a proof) of saving faith, not a co-contributing cause of salvation.

Montie Claunch wrote:
But, you have for some reason ignored all the various scriptures (such as in my last post).

Montie, one has only to quickly review this thread to wonder how you could make such an assertion (See the grasshopper’s comments regarding your references to James 2, Luke 10, 1 Corinthians 13, Matthew 7, Matthew 24, and Matthew 25.) Specifically, what passages of Scripture has the hopper “ignored”? While you’re at it, please explain why all of the following Scripture passages assert the efficacy of God’s grace through faith plus NOTHING as resulting in salvation? Ephesians 2:8-9, Galations 3:22-26, Romans 10:9-10, John 6:40, and John 6:47.

Montie Claunch wrote:
I keep saying that there is something that makes that “Saving faith” worth something and hence acctually “Saving Faith”.

That’s just it, Montie. . .You “keep saying” (an ipse dixit) that “faith+works” is the cause of salvation. However, the the Scriptures to which you refer establish that while “works” are a proof, they do not contribute as a cause of salvation.

Montie Claunch wrote:
Please before going on go back and address the scriptures I have quoted it there. Lets discuss that before moving on.

Montie, see above.

In His Grace,


OkieGrasshopper

as found at cbworldview.cesbooks.co.nz/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

I am sorry I am such a needy person but, I like talking to others, trying to share the faith. Anyway, anything would be appreciated. Thanks and God bless.


#2

I would ask him who is the better interpreter of those verses, him, or the ones who gave him his bible? THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.


#3

To my mind, a “work” is something that we must do, some action that is required of us.

Now, it is my understanding that even those who believe in “faith alone” believe that some action is required of us–specifically an act of faith. This may be described as an act of will, an act of placing our trust in Jesus, an act of repentance. In any case, it consists of some human action.

And yes, the impetus for that human action is the freely given grace of God. Nevertheless, the human action is required. Human cooperation is needed. Otherwise, anyone could be saved without doing anything–even placing one’s trust in Jesus. Because Faith is a human act, not a divine act.


#4

I am sorry I am such a needy person but, I like talking to others, trying to share the faith. Anyway, anything would be appreciated. Thanks and God bless.

You could just give him this: catholic.com/library/Reward_and_Merit.asp

Don’t apologize. IT’s not necessary!


#5

the grasshopper has confused himself. he talks about the distinction between “works of the law” and “works of love”, then goes on to say that James is not referring to “works of love” but only “works of the law” or some other kind of work that men may take credit for.

ask him why St. James would tell us that faith without “works of the law” is dead? grasshopper has boxed himself into a corner, and this is where you can show him his error. Works in general or works of the law, are meant to mean those works that men do of themselves and take credit for…grasshopper also defines it this way. But why would James say that “faith without [works of the law] is dead”? he wouldnt say that because everyone, including grasshopper, would agree that that is an absurd proposition and contrary to all Christian theology.

the works James is talking about are the “works of love” that are required of true believers. so what James is saying is this, “faith without [works of love] is dead.” does this statement support the protestant view that works are not necessary for salvation? no, it is actually a direct contradiction. James is saying exactly what the Catholic Church has been saying for over 2,000 years.

make him answer this because i see that he tried to twist this verse around to fit his own needs, but in doing so he has made a mockery of Scripture.


#6

What should I say about his scripture quotes? I need to answer those as well. Thanks and God bless.


#7

[quote=Montie Claunch]What should I say about his scripture quotes? I need to answer those as well. Thanks and God bless.
[/quote]

i wouldnt say anything about those until he answers you first!


#8

[quote=martino]i wouldnt say anything about those until he answers you first!
[/quote]

yeah but, I’m worried that he will take the same road then nothing will have been accomplished.


#9

I would tell him you agree with the bible quotes. A catholic reads the bible different than a protestant. A catholic reads the bible as a whole. We don’t get fixed on a belief and everything else has to mean something else that contradicts our belief from that one line of scripture. Example: Trust in Jesus and you will be saved. Catholics whole heartily agree with that. We say ,yes that’s true , but the bible also says we must have good works.(mathew 25). we agree with that also. The bible also says we baptism now saves us, well we agree with that to. We must eat his body and drink his blood or we have no live in us. We agree with that also. and on and on and on…


#10

[quote=Montie Claunch]Hello all. I am discussing faith and works with this gentleman and I am looking for some help if any of ya’ll would be so kind as to lend a helping hand in what I should tell him I would be ever so thankfull.
as found at cbworldview.cesbooks.co.nz/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

I am sorry I am such a needy person but, I like talking to others, trying to share the faith. Anyway, anything would be appreciated. Thanks and God bless.
[/quote]

Montie, you might want to check out the thread we completed a week or two ago entitled, “Justification by Faith”. I think you will see a lot of the answers you need there.


#11

He wants love? Give him love as a work. 1 Cor 13:1 - 8
See what he has to say to that.


#12

Hallo. I have put together this answer and was wondering if ya’ll could crique it for me.
Thanks and God bless.

Dear Sir,

If you look at Ephsians as a whole it says a little something diffrent. It says that we are saved by Grace. Which is what the Church teaches and I agree. Faith is a component which the verses you show testify too. But, You leave it off with it saying that we can’t earn our salvation which I have repeatedly said that I agree with. If you look at the next verse, Ephsians 2:10 “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” which is what I am trying to say.
If one has a Pecan tree, one works and tends it. It grows leaves take in the sun light and roots to absorb nutriants from the ground. But, if it does not yeild pecans it torn up and desposed off. Why? Because it did not do what it was supposed to which is to produce pecans. It produceing pecans is a minor “proof” that pecan tree but, we would know that it was what it was without it. It is torn up because it is fruitless.
Likewise we are given gods graces and are tended by him. We take in his graces through are “leaves” (Baptism, confession, the eucahrist ect.) which we do not deserve and can do nothing to deserve. But, if we do not bear the fruit we were made to make, Good Works, we are torn up. Not because we didn’t have faith but, because we weren’t doing what we were made for.
A craftsman does not keep a car that he made that does not drive, or a T.V. that does not reveil shows, or a printer that will not print. He disgards it.
Jesus gave us the two great commandments To Love God and Love Neighbor.
We see in the parable of the Good Samaritan that The Preist and the Levite who had faith did not show love to their neighbor, the beaten man.
Both had Faith. They both proboly went and gave sacrfices but, they did not love.
Which is why Jesus say, that not everyone who says father father with be saved but, those who does the will (like the two commandments above mentioned) of the Father.
Which is why James say, Faith without works is dead.
And Paul says, Even though He has All FAITH and have not chairity he is NOTHING.

You have not adiquitly replyed to my scriptures. You have simply said, oh they show that works are “Proofs” of “Saving Faith” and dismissed it. I say they arn’t. I know as well as you do that that is not what they are saying. If you would please address them I would be more that happy to talk more.

I bid you Good day sir.

Please be as critical as need be. I would really like to get to this gentleman. Please and thank you.
And God Bless.


#13

I would say this about faith and works in general:

You can tell what a person puts their faith in by their works. A person who spends their life accumulating money has put their faith in money, whatever they may say about what they have put their faith in.

People who carry an umbrella because their favorite weather man has forcast rain is carrying that umbrella because they put their faith in the weather man.

A person who follows the Law of Moses has put their faith in Moses. A person who follows Jesus’s word and example does so because they have put their faith in Jesus. Faith comes first and works follow from it. But if a person’s works do not imitate those of Jesus then that person has not put their faith in Jesus.

A tree is known by its fruit.

Which is to say, you know what a person puts their faith in by observing their deeds.

Hope that helps

peace

Jim


#14

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