What to say about the Sabbath to Sabbatarians?


#1

I have a few Sabbatarian (SDA) inlaws (Aunts inlaws) and they know my extreme intrest in catholism are really pounding me on this and I would like to know what would be the wisest thing to say and the best way to presesnt this to them? Thanks and God bless. :thumbsup:


#2

“No one is free, therefore, to pass judgement on you in terms of what you eat or drink or what you do on yearly or monthly feasts, or on the sabbath. All these were but a shadow of things to come; the reality is the body of Christ.” (Colossians 1:16, 17)

We do know, however, through Scripture that the Church–the body of Christ–from its earliest times observed a different day of worship from that of the Jewish Sabbath. It was the “first day of the week” or Sunday–the day of the Lord’s resurrection, or “the Lord’s day”.

“On the first day of the week when we gathered for the breaking of the bread, Paul preached to them.” (Acts 20:7)

“On the first day of each week everyone should put aside whatever he has been able to save, so that the collection will not have to be taken up after I arrive.” (1 Cor. 16:2)

“On the Lord’s day I was caught up in ecstasy, and I heard behind me a peircing voice like the sound of a trumpet.” (Rev. 1:10)

The Church was no longer bound by the scruples of Old Law Judaism and as an exercise of that freedom in Jesus Christ and to honor his resurrection, it began to observe it’s worship practices of “devoting themselves to the apostles’ instruction and the communal life, to the breaking of bread and the prayers” (Acts 2:42) on Sunday, the Lord’s day.

Is that the answer you’re looking for?


#3

[quote=Montie Claunch]I have a few Sabbatarian (SDA) inlaws (Aunts inlaws) and they know my extreme intrest in catholism are really pounding me on this and I would like to know what would be the wisest thing to say and the best way to presesnt this to them? Thanks and God bless. :thumbsup:
[/quote]

Also, just for my own education, Montie…I have never heard of this particular Protestant sect. Could you tell me about them, please, or direct me to where I may learn about them?

Also, always, when dealing with anyone who tries to tell you something you feel may be false about the Holy Mother Church, remind them that

  1. You are going to find out the real answer and
  2. Until you do, they want to make sure they are not breaking the 8th Commandment.

Thank you, Montie, taking the time to give me this information.


#4

[quote=LSK]Also, just for my own education, Montie…I have never heard of this particular Protestant sect. Could you tell me about them, please, or direct me to where I may learn about them?

Thank you, Montie, taking the time to give me this information.
[/quote]

O.K. this is what I know.

  1. They demand that you obey the Jewish Sabbath (Saterday) and not the lord’s day (Sunday) saying the “Lord’s day” was origanlly Saterday.
  2. They are strickt on the deitary laws. For some reason they strongly encourage people to not eat meat (ask someone else why I don’t know)
  3. They beleive in “Soul-sleep”, that the soul “Sleeps” till the second coming.
  4. They say Commuinion is symbolic.
  5. They have Ellen G. White who is their “Prophetess” whom I don’t know much of, someone else would be better of telling you about her.
  6. Marraige is not permentet, hence divorece and remarriage is alright (though they view divorce as a sad something, or at least the ones I know)
  7. They are governed by a Cofrence of elected officals who make and decided rules.
  8. They beleive that the Catholic Church is the Anti-Christ as descirbed by Daniel 7 and Revelation (I can’t remeber the chapter it has been a while scince I heard it.) forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=68287 explains it.

These are the more distintive beleifs that they hold. Other than that I think (stressing think) they are fairly orthadox (beleiveing in the trinity, the second coming ect.)
I know there are some former Adventists here (Adventistnomore and SDA2RC come to mind) you could talk to them and they will be able to tell you more about them than I ever could.


#5

[quote=Montie Claunch]I have a few Sabbatarian (SDA) inlaws (Aunts inlaws) and they know my extreme intrest in catholism are really pounding me on this and I would like to know what would be the wisest thing to say and the best way to presesnt this to them? Thanks and God bless. :thumbsup:
[/quote]

If they believe that Jesus is the Christ of God, then remind them that he is the Lord of the Sabbath who healed the sick on the Sabbath and cited David eating the shew bread reserved for priests on the Sabbath because the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath (cf. Mt. 12:1-14, Mk. 2:23-29, Lk. 6:1-11, Jn. 5:1-12 & 7:22-24).


#6

Romans 14: ( KJV )

2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.
3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.
4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
6He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
7For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;
8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s.

as to meat and the Sabbath…

:slight_smile:


#7

John 6:
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

plus…

Matthew 26:
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

thus, real presence…

:slight_smile:


#8

[quote=Montie Claunch]I have a few Sabbatarian (SDA) inlaws (Aunts inlaws) and they know my extreme intrest in catholism are really pounding me on this and I would like to know what would be the wisest thing to say and the best way to presesnt this to them? Thanks and God bless. :thumbsup:
[/quote]

Montie, the charge is made by SDAs that Catholics do not honor the 10 commandments as regards the observance of the Biblical Sabbath. This charge is based upon the Catholic recognition that we are no longer bound by the Law, of which the 10 Commandments are a part. If we are bound by the 10 Commandments as written, then we must also be subject to the specific punishments prescribed in the OT for breaking each Commandment; yet, we are not. Thus, we are not bound by the 10 Commandments themselves (which are legal requirements), but we are bound by the righteousness (perfected in the Person of Christ) that lies behind each of the 10 Commandments.

So, by selecting Sunday as its Sabbath day, the Church holds to the righteousness of the Commandment while being free from the Law of the Commandment itself. Christians never kept a Saturday sabbath. On Saturdays, the earliest Christians lived and worshipped as Jews, evangelizing their Jewish brethren in the synagogues (a work). Their “day of rest,” the day on which they gathered to pray and worship among themselves exclusively was the following day, the Lord’s Day: Sunday.


#9

John 2: ( KJV )
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

the pope, and the church do NOT deny the Father and the Son, but
rather defend the Father and the Son…

the Vatican is not on one of the 7 hills of Rome, it is across the
Tiber river from those 7 hills…

plus, it’s my opinion, and this is only my opinion, that “the antichrist” can’t even disguise himself as a christian because, according to antichrist teachings i am familiar with, he will be ruling the world from Jerusalem at the time of the battle of Armageddon, as the Jewish Messiah…

if he had ever proclaimed Christ as the Messiah, then the Jews
would never accept him as Messiah… and every pope in history,
even the worst examples, never denied Christ was the Messiah.
(( i know about the ‘fable of Christ’ story, but even if that
statement was made, there was never any teaching that
Jesus was anything other than the Messiah, by the Church ))

if he weren’t of the linage of David, then they wouldn’t accept
him as Messiah… for the whole of the Jewish people to accept
him, he’d have to have a pretty good pedigree…

:slight_smile:


#10

Since they have great distrust for the teachings of the Catholic Church, you might also consider discussing this, from Jewish scholarship:

The origin of the Sabbath, as well as the true meaning of the name, is uncertain. The earliest Biblical passages which mention it (Ex. xx. 10, xxxiv. 21; Deut. v. 14; Amos viii. 5) presuppose its previous existence, and analysis of all the references to it in the canon makes it plain that its observance was neither general nor altogether spontaneous in either pre-exilic or post-exilic Israel. It was probably originally connected in some manner with the cult of the moon, as indeed is suggested by the frequent mention of Sabbath and New-Moon festivals in the same sentence (Isa. i. 13; Amos viii. 5; H Kings iv. 23). The old Semites worshiped the moon and the stars (Hommel, “Der Gestirndienst der Alten Araber”). Nomads and shepherds, they regarded the night as benevolent, the day with its withering heat as malevolent. In this way the moon (“Sinai” = “moon “sin”] mountain”) became central in their pantheon. The moon, however, has four phases in approximately 28 days, and it seemingly comes to a standstill every seven days. Days on which the deity rested were considered taboo, or ill-omened. New work could not be begun, nor unfinished work continued, on such days. The original meaning of “Shabbat” conveys this idea (the derivation from “sheba’” is entirely untenable). … The Sabbath depending, in Israel’s nomadic period, upon the observation of the phases of the moon, it could not, according to this view, be a fixed day. When the Israelites settled in the land and became farmers, their new life would have made it desirable that the Sabbath should come at regular intervals, and the desired change would have been made all the more easily as they had abandoned the lunar religion.

[Jewish Encyclopedia - “Sabbath”]


#11

[quote=FCEGM]Montie, the charge is made by SDAs that Catholics do not honor the 10 commandments as regards the observance of the Biblical Sabbath. This charge is based upon the Catholic recognition that we are no longer bound by the Law, of which the 10 Commandments are a part. If we are bound by the 10 Commandments as written, then we must also be subject to the specific punishments prescribed in the OT for breaking each Commandment; yet, we are not. Thus, we are not bound by the 10 Commandments themselves (which are legal requirements), but we are bound by the righteousness (perfected in the Person of Christ) that lies behind each of the 10 Commandments.

So, by selecting Sunday as its Sabbath day, the Church holds to the righteousness of the Commandment while being free from the Law of the Commandment itself. Christians never kept a Saturday sabbath. On Saturdays, the earliest Christians lived and worshipped as Jews, evangelizing their Jewish brethren in the synagogues (a work). Their “day of rest,” the day on which they gathered to pray and worship among themselves exclusively was the following day, the Lord’s Day: Sunday.
[/quote]

O.K. this has me wondering and being rather confused. If we’re not bound to the 10 commandments why are the stated and exponded in the Catchism?


#12

Hi Montie,

Perhaps others can elaborate better than I, but I’ll give it a try.

We are not legally “bound” by the ten commandments.

However, to understand the full sense of this concept, we must, OF COURSE, look at what Jesus has told us:

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come not to abolish them, but to fulfill them.” (Matt. 5:17)

So, our next question is how does he do that?

We read on:
In Mark, Chapter 12 we read about a scribe who approaches Jesus with the question “‘Which is the first of all the commandments?’ Jesus replied: 'This is the first: ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is Lord alone! Therefore you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the second, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these.” (Mark 12:28-31)

This commandment is, in part, why we are no longer bound by the legalism of the Old Law. Jesus has placed a New Law on our hearts. It is the law of love. If we truly do love God, then we would observe all of the precepts of the Old Law, thus fulfilling our obligation to worship him above all other things. If we truly do love others as we do ourselves, then we would not even consider doing all the things that we find prohibited in the Old Law: stealing, murder, lying, coveting, etc.

I think this is the most fundamental explanation.


#13

[quote=Montie Claunch]O.K. this has me wondering and being rather confused. If we’re not bound to the 10 commandments why are the stated and exponded in the Catchism?
[/quote]

Very simply, Montie, because we are still bound by their righteousness. In saying that we are not bound by the Commandments, this does not mean that we don’t observe them or have to know about them.All “not being bound by them” means is that we are not bound by them as a matter of law - as legal requirements. Rather, we are bound by the righteousness to which they call us. Jesus says very clearly that 'not one jot of the Law will pass way.'Yet, Paul says that we are saved by faith apart from the works of the Law.

Now, there are two ways to understand this - a correct and orthodox way and an incorrect and heretical way. The latter presumes (very wrongly) that Paul is saying that we are free from the righteousness of the Law (e.g. the Ten Commandments), that we no longer have to worry about sinning or breaking the Commandments. But, if that were the case, then Paul would be contradicting Christ. Rather, what Paul means is precisely what Christ Himself referred to - the idea that observing the Law, AS A MERE MATTER OF LAW, is not enough to save someone. Thus, if you keep the Commandments only to “be on God’s good side” because you are scared to do otherwise (although you’d really like to and would sin if you could get away with it) this does not make you righteous. Yet, if you keep the Commandments because you love God and want to sincerely do His will, then you have exceeded the dimension of mere Law and have entered into a deeper Covenant with God (the New Covenant in Jesus Christ). Jesus says it: “You have heard it said of old, ‘Thou shall not commit adultery.’ But, I say to you, whoever looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” Likewise, “You have heard is said of old, ‘Thou shall not kill.’ But, I say to you, whoever calls his brother 'fool! [that is, whoever is violently aggressive] has already broken the Commandment.” This is the same point that Paul is making.

We are not bound by the letter of the Law itself, but by the righteousness of Christ Who fulfills the Law and is able to write the Law upon our hearts, and not merely on tablets of stone. See the distinction? So, the Commandments are necessary as firm and Divinely-given guidelines for how to be righteous. But, they are not enough as written - that is, as a matter of mere Law - but refer to deeper things and a higher sense of righteousness, as personified by Jesus Christ, Whose example we are to follow as Christians. For Jesus did not merely keep the bare letter of the Law, but fulfilled its spirit, keeping the true essence of the Law perfectly. And so, we Christians are not able to play games with the Law (the Commandments) or hide behind them, as the Pharisees did. For example, a Pharisee could argue that the Commandment reads, “Thou shall not kill.” Therefore, he could say that he is free to beat a man within an inch of his life, as long as he doesn’t actually kill him. But, this is clearly not the spirit of the Commandment. God is not playing legalistic games with the Commandments, but gives them to us to illustrate true righteousness.

continued. . .


#14

So, the bare essentials of the Commandments are not enough. Rather, there is something behind the essentials which are the true substance of the Law. “Thou shall not kill” means that we should not harbor hatred or unjust violent rage against anyone, not merely that we should not literally commit murder. “Thou shall not commit adultery” means that we should be just and moral in all areas of our sexuality, not merely when it comes to sleeping with married women, etc.

And the same is true of all the Commandments, including “Keep holy the Sabbath Day.” The point of this Commandment is that we remember a Sabbath day -not necessarily the Sabbath day of the Old Covenant (the Covenant of Law). The reason that the Old Covenant called for a Sabbath day was to remind the Israelites of how God rested after establishing Creation, and how they themselves are called to a similar rest (i.e., Heaven). Well, Christians celebrate a Sunday Sabbath (e.g. Acts 20:7, 1 Cor. 16:2, etc.) because that was the day on which Christ completed the New Creation by rising from the dead, and thus rising to a New Covenant in which we share. For the work of the Old Covenant was concluded on a Friday (the day He died --under the Law). Then, He “rested” in the tomb on that Saturday (the Old Covenant Sabbath - to show that He is God - the SAME God Who established the first Creation), and then He rose again to a new and eternal “rest” - the glory of His Heavenly Kingdom and of His New Covenant, the Church (against which “the gates of hades” - that is, death itself - cannot prevail: Matt 16:18). This is why our Sabbath in Christ is on a Sunday and not on Saturday with the Jews. We have inherited a New Covenant. We are no longer under the Law.

In Christ,
Frances


#15

More from Jewish scholarship,admitting that the commandment does not fix the Sabbath to a specific day of the week, and that Sabbath *could be observed on Sunday *without loss of true religion…

"***… the phraseology of the commandment does not fix the six days (the definite article is not prefixed to http://jewishencyclopedia.com/volume10/V10p604001.jpg***); the definite article before “seventh” implies merely that the day referred to is that following any group of six consecutive days; the phrase “the seventh day” is found also in the Pessah law (Deut. xvi. 8), where it is evident that no fixed day of the week is intended… The only consideration to be weighed is the unity of Israel. If all or most Jews were to observe Sabbath on the so-called first day in the manner in which it should be observed, namely, by abstention from work, the difficulty would be met without loss to true religion." [Jewish Encyclopedia - “Sabbath and Sunday”]

Thus, according to even Jewish scholarship keeping the Sabbath Holy could be met by observing the Sabbath on Sunday.


#16

[quote=LSK]Also, just for my own education, Montie…I have never heard of this particular Protestant sect. Could you tell me about them, please, or direct me to where I may learn about them?

Also, always, when dealing with anyone who tries to tell you something you feel may be false about the Holy Mother Church, remind them that

  1. You are going to find out the real answer and
  2. Until you do, they want to make sure they are not breaking the 8th Commandment.

Thank you, Montie, taking the time to give me this information.
[/quote]

Hi Montie! :slight_smile:
Didn’t I tell you to always start your research in the CA Library? :rotfl: Look at this article on Changing the Sabbath Here’s 10 articles on Adventist stuff…

Seventh Day Wondering offers some insights into this group.

This one also helps. Seventh Day Adventism

Pax tecum,


#17

Hi Montie, have you tried this approach?

theworkofgod.org/Library/Apologtc/R_Haddad/Course/Book2A.htm#SUNDAY

Lumen Verum Apologetics
A 30-Part Course in Defence of
the Catholic Faith
Robert M. Haddad

theworkofgod.org/Library/Apologtc/R_Haddad/Course/Contents.htm

Personally, I use Romans 14 to prove that part of the church worshippped on Sunday and go to texts in the gospels that speak of the first day of the week.

Matthew 28:1
The Resurrection ] After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.

Mark 16:2
Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb

Mark 16:9
((The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.)) ] When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons.

Luke 24:1
The Resurrection ] On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb.

John 20:1
The Empty Tomb ] Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.

John 20:19
Jesus Appears to His Disciples ] On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!”

Acts 20:7
On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.

1 Corinthians 16:2
On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.

Then I ask how is their personal relationship with Jesus doing?

You may want to check if they are of the semi-arian or homean SDA sects.

Whenever, they bring up the topic agian, simply say romans 14.


#18

We celebrate the Eucharist on Sunday because Christ was risen on the third day and died on Good Friday before Pascha (Easter).

And actually, in the Latin-Rite, we celebrate the Eucharist every single day of the week.

God bless :wink:


#19

[quote=Montie Claunch]I have a few Sabbatarian (SDA) inlaws (Aunts inlaws) and they know my extreme intrest in catholism are really pounding me on this and I would like to know what would be the wisest thing to say and the best way to presesnt this to them? Thanks and God bless. :thumbsup:
[/quote]

Hello Montie…my approach has been to ask the SDA to demonstrate 1) that “Saturday” is an intrinsic component of the Sabbath Command and 2) where in Scripture has God revealed “the date line”?

To illustrate what I mean by the first question, I’d pose the following to the SDA:

Imagine that you were flying solo over an ocean when your plane developed engine trouble and you were forced to crash land onto a deserted island. For several days - you don’t know for how many days - but for several days you were unconscious. When you regain consciousness you literally do not know which day of the week it is.

But you have your Bible!

With your Bible as your only guide, how will you know when “Saturday” arrives such that you may faithfully observe the Sabbath Command “on Saturday”?

The point is, “Saturday” is not intrinsic to the observance of the Sabbath Command:

“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work…” (Exodus 20:8-10)

Catholics work for six days but on “the seventh day” rest. So how are we in violation of “the Sabbath Command”? The righteousness" of the Sabbath Command - as I understand FCEGM to affirm - is that aspect of “The Law” which is “written in the heart” of every man as St Paul affirms in Romans 2:12-15 and which the Catholic Church refers to as “The Natural Law”. Now from the law “written in our hearts” we can all know - through the use of right reason - that it is wrong to lie, steal, murder, covet, ect…and from a consideration of creation we can know the existence of the Creator, and from a consideration of God we can “know in our hearts” that God is deserving of “public and regular” worship on the part of human society…this is the “righteousness” behind the Sabbath Command, but the “when” of this “public and regular” worship of God is a matter of positive revelaton from God - with regard to the seventh day following six days - but the “when” of “the seventh day” is a matter of Tradition and Church Authority…for the Jews, Saturday is their “seventh day” but for the Church of Jesus Christ, “the pillar and foundation of the truth” (1Tim 3:15), established by Christ Himself with the Authority to “bind and loose”, the “seventh day” is Sunday in honor of our Lord’s Resurrection from the dead “on the first day of the week”.

With regard to my second question, I’d pose the following:

For the sake of argument, let’ allow that the Jews in Israel have faithfully observed “every seventh day” since the time of Exodus, such that, when sundown Friday evening occurs in Israel the “true” seventh day begins.

Depending on where the date line is established, “Sundown Friday evening in Israel” can either be “sunrise Friday morning in North America” (if the seventh day occurs first in Israel) or “sunrise Saturday morning in North America” (if the seventh day occurs first in North America).

Assuming that Israel observes the “true” seventh day - how does mankind on the opposite side of the earth know whether their observance of the seventh day follows or precedes that of Israel?

See: A History of the International Date Line
at phys.uu.nl/~vgent/idl/idl.htm

If you pose these questions to your relatives, I would be interested in how they answer as I have yet to come across an SDA who can.

Keep the Faith
jmt


#20

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