What was the "true church" of the Old Testament?


#1

This came to my mind. Looking for opinions/explanations.

:slight_smile:


#2

[quote=malachi_a_serva]This came to my mind. Looking for opinions/explanations.

:slight_smile:
[/quote]

To cut the the point, the “true church” before the coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was Jews loved and worshipped the God we all love and worship today. But they stuck to the dead letter of the 10 commandments. If you were guilty of one of them, you were guilty of them all. Without the Messiah, there was no salvation if you were guilty of them, ones must not let themselves be steered left or right of the law.

Now we know and believe that God has given us the Messiah, Jesus Christ, who fulfills BUT does not abolish the law. Jesus now has taught us the greatest commandment is to “Love our Lord our God, with all of our heart, soul and mind.” And in turn, if we really do love him, he gives us a second commandment that we already have obeyed, to “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

BEAUTIFUL is our Lord God that he now gives us a commandment, a commandment that if we live in his spirit, all others are fullfilled. We are neither too close nor too far away from the law now. That is living in perfection with our Lord God. If we violate or plot out against the law, we are in no way living in Jesus’s spirit. IT IS impossible NOT to be saved if we live in Jesus, his spirit is all inclusive in heavenly greatness. By hearing his word and believing in him, being baptized and teach others his teachings that are written in the gospels, we are now the “WHOSOEVERS!” Jesus spoke of in John 3:16!! THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS AT HAND! Come on everyone, “THY KINGDOM COME, THY WILL BE DONE”! Jesus gave us the ultimate sacrifice by his cross and resurrection, he has called us out of bondage. No more burnt offerings or taking your sacrifices to priests in temples. He gave us in rememberence of him, the breaking of the bread and drinking of the wine, his spirital body and blood, which in perfect harmony with each other and in him we eat, yes we eat and nash his body and drink his blood. He is everlasting life. We receive and give all that is good and holy to our High Priest of the Church, Jesus Christ.

But yet today, we seem to think we cannot go to worship before or after sunrise and sundown on Saturday, and there are holy days of obligation. EVERY day is a holy day.

When a church gets together to worship at any one time, it is out of the greatest commandment of our Lord and God, love. Not the 4th commandent.

1900+ thousand years of mans religious doctrine and philosophy has tickled our ears to believe that there are so many more ways to reach Jesus in heaven.

WHY DO WE STILL THINK THIS IS SO HARD TO FIGURE OUT!

God bless in the name of Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit all of us.


#3

Where do you get the idea that we seem to think we can only worship at certain times?


#4

[quote=Lazerlike42]Where do you get the idea that we seem to think we can only worship at certain times?
[/quote]

Its been thrown around here on these boards that some wonder if they fulfill their weekly obligation to mass if they do it on Saturday.


#5

[quote=1Christ1Church]Its been thrown around here on these boards that some wonder if they fulfill their weekly obligation to mass if they do it on Saturday.
[/quote]

Yes, there is an obligation to attend Mass, but that has nothing to do with restricting worship. If a Catholic wants to worship God he or she can do it 24/7 anywhere he or she wants. If a Catholic wants to do it in a church, he or she can do it any day out of the week or every day out of the week if he or she would like. In fact, many Catholic churches even allow a person to go there virtually any time they want, even if there is no Mass being held. The Catholic Church provides far more oppurtunities for Her faithful to go to church than the vast majority of Protestant churches, so to accuse Her of restricting worship is the height of silliness.

Also, you may misunderstand. The obligation is not to go to Mass once per week, as if they are trying to make sure people fo often enough. It is to go on Sunday, the Lord’s day!


#6

[quote=Lazerlike42]Yes, there is an obligation to attend Mass, but that has nothing to do with restricting worship. If a Catholic wants to worship God he or she can do it 24/7 anywhere he or she wants. If a Catholic wants to do it in a church, he or she can do it any day out of the week or every day out of the week if he or she would like. In fact, many Catholic churches even allow a person to go there virtually any time they want, even if there is no Mass being held. The Catholic Church provides far more oppurtunities for Her faithful to go to church than the vast majority of Protestant churches, so to accuse Her of restricting worship is the height of silliness.

Also, you may misunderstand. The obligation is not to go to Mass once per week, as if they are trying to make sure people fo often enough. It is to go on Sunday, the Lord’s day!
[/quote]

We all know that we can worship God 24/7. And like Jesus said in Matthew 6:6 we dont have to go ALONE into a temple or building to worship him. We do it alone and in secret. It is when TOGETHER we go into a structure or building to worship God it is a holy place. Read Acts 17:24-31. God does not dwell in buildings anymore, nothing we can make out of the things of this earth can be made to give us a image of God so it will make us feel closer to him.

God gives us the opportunity to go and worship 24/7! Together or alone!


#7

[quote=1Christ1Church]We all know that we can worship God 24/7. And like Jesus said in Matthew 6:6 we dont have to go ALONE into a temple or building to worship him. We do it alone and in secret. It is when TOGETHER we go into a structure or building to worship God it is a holy place. Read Acts 17:24-31. God does not dwell in buildings anymore, nothing we can make out of the things of this earth can be made to give us a image of God so it will make us feel closer to him.

God gives us the opportunity to go and worship 24/7! Together or alone!
[/quote]

The thing that makes a Catholic Church a Holy place is the presence of Christ Himself physically in the Eucharist. You may not believe this to be true, but think about it. If you did believe Christ was physically present in a place, wouldn’t you want to go there to pray?


#8

[quote=malachi_a_serva]This came to my mind. Looking for opinions/explanations.

:slight_smile:
[/quote]

The Church of the Old Testament were the Jews, the Chosen People. Their leaders were the Scribes and Pharisees as told in the Old Testament and New Testament.

However they apostacised from the true faith when they rejected Jesus as Messiah and the faithful remnant is the Catholic Church.

Ken


#9

[quote=1Christ1Church]We all know that we can worship God 24/7. And like Jesus said in Matthew 6:6 we dont have to go ALONE into a temple or building to worship him. We do it alone and in secret. It is when TOGETHER we go into a structure or building to worship God it is a holy place. Read Acts 17:24-31. God does not dwell in buildings anymore, nothing we can make out of the things of this earth can be made to give us a image of God so it will make us feel closer to him.

God gives us the opportunity to go and worship 24/7! Together or alone!
[/quote]

Indeed, if the Blessed Sacrament is not reserved in a church building then of course what you say is correct.

However AFTER that was written in Scripture the Church began to reserve the Blessed Sacrament in the Church Building fot the purpose of giving Holy Communion to those who were sick and could not make it to Holy Mass.

Therefore to claim such nonsense is pure PROTESTANT HERESY. For Protestants do not believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist as taught in the Bible or in fact by the Christians during and after the Apostolic era.

Read Christian history yourself- Christians were persecuted by the Romans for holding “evil ceremonies that involved cannibalism - consuming flesh and blood”.

Ken


#10

My confussion, apparently there were allot of different Jewish denominations; Scribes, Saducees, Essenes, and Pharisees to name a few.

But not “one”. Why would their need to be “one” now?


#11

[quote=malachi_a_serva]My confussion, apparently there were allot of different Jewish denominations; Scribes, Saducees, Essenes, and Pharisees to name a few.

But not “one”. Why would their need to be “one” now?
[/quote]

Because the Catholic Church is NOT a “denomination”, plain and simple. The Catholic Church is THE Church established by Jesus Christ. No other “churches” or “denominations” were.

The Old Testament Church did not have the charism of infallibility when teaching, the NT Church has.

If you are not a Catholic you do not know history. Jesus established one Church to teach the world, not several “denominations”. Then heresies began to spring up. One example is Protestantism which lumps together all non-Catholic sects that have since splintered from Martin Luther into over 33,000 different sects.

Ken


#12

[quote=malachi_a_serva]My confussion, apparently there were allot of different Jewish denominations; Scribes, Saducees, Essenes, and Pharisees to name a few.

But not “one”. Why would their need to be “one” now?
[/quote]

There were many different Jewish denominations because the fullness of revelation in Jesus Christ had yet to come about. Hebrews 1:1-2 “in times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets; in theses last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe.” The Jews didn’t have the fullness of faith. Indeed, the OT itself is a journey towards a complete understanding of God. It wasn’t until this understanding was completed that there could truly be one faith.


#13

[quote=kleary]The Church of the Old Testament were the Jews, the Chosen People. Their leaders were the Scribes and Pharisees as told in the Old Testament and New Testament.

However they apostacised from the true faith when they rejected Jesus as Messiah and the faithful remnant is the Catholic Church.

Ken
[/quote]

Scott Hahn has a very good cassette called (if I remember correctly) “The Rise and Fall of the Old Testament Church” which is a brief survey of the nation of Israel.

  • Liberian

#14

[quote=malachi_a_serva]My confusion, apparently there were a lot of different Jewish denominations; Scribes, Saducees, Essenes, and Pharisees to name a few. But not “one”. Why would their need to be “one” now?
[/quote]

This is a new one to me. With the exception of the Essenes, these various groups all worshipped and offered sacrifice in the same temple. The Essenes certainly believed the temple was the place to worship and sacrifice, but were staying away because they did not accept the current non-levitical Chief Priests. Its sort of like trying to say that the Bishops and Priests, Lay Catholics, and Chancery members are three or four different denominations of Catholic.


#15

[quote=malachi_a_serva]This came to my mind. Looking for opinions/explanations.

:slight_smile:
[/quote]

The concept does not really apply in the OT - it is applicable only after the second century AD. One can speak of a “chosen people” - but not really of other, competing peoples or groups who might conceivably be regarded, if only by themselves, as the “chosen people”.

The closest approximation to that sort of thinking in the pre-Christian period is the unfriendliness, which developed into mutal hatred, between Jews and Samaritans.

“Normative” Judaism in Palestine - Second Temple Judaism, basically - allowed for a variety of sects and doctrines as equally expressions of Judaism in a way almost impossible in (say) post-Apostolic Christianity. One reason for this is that Christianity quickly became a vigorously dogmatic religion - unlike Judaism and early Christianity, which were more concerned with proclamation of God and witness to Him. What STJ does share with post-Apostolic Christianity, is a concern for ritual worship. So the three are far from identical in character, despite the real genetic continuity.

Not that the Temple in Egypt, which outlasted that in Jerusalem, should be forgotten :slight_smile: ##


#16

[quote=kleary]Indeed, if the Blessed Sacrament is not reserved in a church building then of course what you say is correct.

However AFTER that was written in Scripture the Church began to reserve the Blessed Sacrament in the Church Building fot the purpose of giving Holy Communion to those who were sick and could not make it to Holy Mass.

Therefore to claim such nonsense is pure PROTESTANT HERESY. For Protestants do not believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist as taught in the Bible or in fact by the Christians during and after the Apostolic era.

Read Christian history yourself- Christians were persecuted by the Romans for holding “evil ceremonies that involved cannibalism - consuming flesh and blood”.

Ken
[/quote]

Brother, if St, Paul said God does not dwell in buildings anymore, how can God be contained in a box then?

As far as Christian History, stick to your plow brother, and dont look back. The Gospels of Jesus foreshadows persecution of us. The greatest form of persecution is happing inside our Church, the Fellowship of the Believers, today. Remember Luke 12:49-53, he speaks of divisions. All sects(the divisons sadden me) of Christianity should be working on what went wrong to separate us. That would be looking back into Christian history, but Jesus knew that we could never do that with the right intentions. All we can see is pride, lineage, and number stats of every kind when we look back to prove us right. He is telling me to look forward, when I see a need, I meet the need, I give back to God through Jesus by giving out to others what he has giving me.

The Word of God is eternal and timeless. His teachings in the Gospels and the foundation of the Church in Acts are all inclusive of Heaven.

The rest of the New Testament writings(with the exception of Revelation) could of been filed under “Come on people, does Jesus really need to do repeat what he did for us every 3 years?!”


#17

[quote=1Christ1Church]Brother, if St, Paul said God does not dwell in buildings anymore, how can God be contained in a box then?

As far as Christian History, stick to your plow brother, and dont lo]
[/quote]

Would you provide the Chapter and verse you are thinking of. I know of one but it isn’t quite what you are saying so there must be another that I am unfamiliar with.


#18

[quote=malachi_a_serva]My confussion, apparently there were allot of different Jewish denominations; Scribes, Saducees, Essenes, and Pharisees to name a few.

But not “one”. Why would their need to be “one” now?
[/quote]

The Sadducees were heretics: they did not believe in the Prophets, the Resurrection, or the Messiah. They did believe in the Temple worship, however, which was the center of Judaism. The Pharisees, who are the predecessors of the modern Orthodox Jews, were the true believers of the Temple period. They not only upheld the Temple worship, but also believed in the Messiah, the Prophets, and all of the things that Catholics today believe in as it regards the Tanakh (Old Testament), with the exception of the specifically Christian interpretations.

The Pharisees, then, would be our “spiritual ancestors”, and this is affirmed by Christ. Matthew 23:2-3 says:

2: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat;
3: so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice.

They were the true representatives of Moses’ Faith, the Faith that the Catholic Church continues today in the Messianic Age. Many Pharisees rejected Christ, however, and that’s where the split began between the religion we call Judaism today, Catholicism. Both are “descendants” of the teachings and beliefs of the Pharisees, whom Christ supported as the true authorities of Judaism.

The Essenes, as someone else said, held beliefs more in line with the Pharisees than the Sadducees (whom they vehemently disliked, IIRC), but they did not keep the full Judaic practice, and had their own peculiarities. Some have tried to say that Jesus was associated with the Essenes because of how he differed from many of the predominant Pharisees of his day (not all, though, as Joseph of Arimithea was a Temple Pharisee, and a follower of Jesus), but I think that has more to do with His Messianic role than any spiritual affinity with the Essenes.

Just my view as someone who converted to the Catholic Church by way of studying Orthodox Judaism :slight_smile:

Peace and God bless!


#19

[quote=adrift]Would you provide the Chapter and verse you are thinking of. I know of one but it isn’t quite what you are saying so there must be another that I am unfamiliar with.
[/quote]

Acts 17:24


#20

[quote=1Christ1Church]To cut the the point, the “true church” before the coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was Jews loved and worshipped the God we all love and worship today. But they stuck to the dead letter of the 10 commandments. If you were guilty of one of them, you were guilty of them all. Without the Messiah, there was no salvation if you were guilty of them, ones must not let themselves be steered left or right of the law.
[/quote]

Respectfully this is incorrect. You have taken a verse out of James and left out the rest. James in no way says the law is not binding but just the opposite.

  • My brethren, show no partiality as you hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory. For if a man with gold rings and in fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in, and you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, “Have a seat here, please,” while you say to the poor man, “Stand there,” or, “Sit at my feet,” have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts?: Listen, my beloved brethren. Has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which he has promised to those who love him? But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you, is it not they who drag you into court? Is it not they who blaspheme that honorable name which was invoked over you? If you really fulfil the royal law, according to the scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well. But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” said also, “Do not kill.” If you do not commit adultery but do kill, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy; yet mercy triumphs over judgment.*

So in James above by dishonoring they are guilty of the whole law, even killing and adultery. That’s James point. However they have recourse through Christ, which James tells us later: confession- *Confess to one another * The commandments are far from dead as you are teaching. And the sabbath rest is one of the 10 commandments, which is fulfilled in Christ on his resurrection. Nowhere does Christ countermand the Law of God. He does correct the teachings of Moasic law, but not that of God because he is God. Notice James setting as well, the assembly: Mass.

*And he said to them, “The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath; so the Son of man is lord even of the sabbath.” *

Now we know and believe that God has given us the Messiah, Jesus Christ, who fulfills BUT does not abolish the law. Jesus now has taught us the greatest commandment is to “Love our Lord our God, with all of our heart, soul and mind.” And in turn, if we really do love him, he gives us a second commandment that we already have obeyed, to “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

You are correct that he fulfils the law, but why do you say he doesn’t abolish the law yet teach the sabbath is abolished in favor of personal worship? If James as stated above says dishonoring a person breaks the other 10 comandments doesn’t it also break the 3rd commandment? (A completely different debate but protestants changed the bible to split the first commandment into 2 parts and combined the last 2 when they broke)

BEAUTIFUL is our Lord God that he now gives us a commandment, a commandment that if we live in his spirit, all others are fullfilled.

No, if we break the other commandments we break the law of love. What love of God is there in breaking his commandments? If we truly love him we keep them, yet when a brother transgresses as James says we forgive when they ask for forgiveness. That is love.

Cont. next post

Peace and God Bless
Nicene


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