What would it take for the LDS Church to be true?

This was emailed to me

Joseph would have told the same version of the First Vision throughout his life. He would have gotten the details correct surrounding the most important, spectacular moment anyone could ever have in this life.

Joseph’s five brothers (and probably the rest of the household) that were sleeping in his room (including some that shared his bed) on September 21, 1823 would have been awakened by the presence of Moroni. They would have testified of his visit as well.

If the angel did indeed take back the gold plates and the urim and thummim from Joseph when Martin Harris lost the first 116 pages, he would have returned the urim & thummim to Joseph when he returned the gold plates to him, instead of having Joseph finish the translation using a common stone he found while digging a well.

Joseph would likely have actually used the gold plates in the translation process,
instead of putting an ordinary stone in a hat without even looking at the plates.

When the 116 pages were lost, Joseph would have simply retranslated the ‘stolen’ pages. If the pages were really stolen by evil men bent on foiling Joseph, the pages would have resurfaced in some form - either as a ransom attempt or foiled attempt to discredit Joseph. The stolen pages wouldn’t have simply been destroyed by men who went to such trouble to obtain them.

The translation of the facsimiles in the Book of Abraham would match what Egyptologists say they mean. The rediscovered papyri would also support the Book of Abraham as well.

The Book of Mormon would not mention things that did not exist in the Americas during Book of Mormon times such as horses, elephants, cattle, goats, wheat, barley, silk, steel, etc. It would probably mention things that did exist such as corn, yams, beans, squash, llamas, sloths, jaguars, and monkeys.

The BOM would be supported by archeological and linguistic evidence. Perhaps not so much evidence that we still wouldn’t need faith, but something to show that the ancient Jews could have been in America.

There would be some remains of two large battles at the Hill Cumorah where over two million people fought and died.

DNA evidence would support that the American Indians and South American peoples descended from Israel.

Joseph would have either denounced the Kinderhook Plates as a fraud, or at least said he didn’t know what they were.

The witnesses would have said more objective statements testifying of the BOM’s divinity. They would not have said things like “I did not see them as I do that pencil case, yet I saw them with the eyes of faith; I saw them just as distinctly as I see anything around me - though at the time, they were covered with a cloth”, ‘he never saw them only as he saw a city through a mountain’, etc.

Some of the witnesses should have been critics or skeptics and not related to each other. Each witness should have written their own testimony instead of merely signing a pre-prepared statement.

con’t

Part 2

God’s true church would likely have been one of the first churches to proclaim equality for blacks instead of the last major religion in America to accept blacks as equals.
There would never have been teachings such as blacks received the curse from Cain for being less valiant in the pre-existence, or that they are destined to be servants only in the next life.

Polygamy would have never been practiced. If it was really commanded by God, then it would have been done differently. It would have been practiced openly, honestly and with dignity, with no marriages to women already married or to underage girls.

Joseph’s wife would have full knowledge of the marriages and would have had to give her permission for each one. And probably one additional wife would have been sufficient instead of at least 33 wives for Joseph.

Joseph would not have proclaimed that a Greek Psalter was really a dictionary of ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics. He would have either said what it really was, or that he just didn’t know.

The prophets since Joseph, including the current one, would have the same prophetic abilities Joseph had. They would finish the translation of the Bible that Joseph started, and they would get answers from God for the many troubling issues members have about the history and doctrine of the Church like blacks & the priesthood, polygamy or the Book of Abraham papyri translation problems.

The temple endowment ceremony would not have come from the Masonry rituals that originated in the Middle Ages.

The temple endowment ceremony would likely be a spiritual, uplifting experience for everyone that goes through it, and it probably would not be so secretive.

The temple endowment ceremony would never have had the five points of fellowship in it, which came directly from the Masons, and has nothing at all to do with religion. The uncomfortable penalties, oath of vengeance, etc. would never have been in there either. If any of these things were really from God, then they’d still be in the ceremony now.

The Church would have always had the same, correct name since it was formed in 1830 and not changed four years later to a name that didn’t even include Christ in the name. It would not have to change it again another four years later to yet another name.

Testimonies wouldn’t have to override facts and conflict with science.

If testimonies are real, then everyone that prays about the Church or the Book of Mormon should get the same confirming answers.

The true church would be the most honest of organizations. It would never publish artwork or articles in its official magazines that mislead readers as to how the Book of Mormon was translated. It wouldn’t sugarcoat its history. The true church would be totally open and disclose what the leaders get paid (even public corporations do that). They would publish their financial statements and budgets as do many other churches. The true church would teach everything honestly and lead by example. It would not change the wording in its lesson manuals to act as if Joseph Smith and Brigham Young only had one wife each. You should never have to worry that there is another side of its history not taught by the church itself.

The church would be much, much bigger. Because the essence of the Church’s “one true Church” claims boils down to its claim to exclusively possess the “priesthood keys” necessary to perform “saving ordinances,” our central question has long been: “Why would God choose to create something like ‘priesthood keys’ that are required to perform ‘saving ordinances,’ and then restrict the availability of those keys and ordinances to less than .01% of the world’s population both anciently and today, and also allow those keys and ordinances to be completely unavailable to anyone on Earth for hundreds and thousands of years?” (e.g., from the destruction of the Nephites around 400 A.D. to Joseph Smith around 1830?). Much of our critical examination of the Church has been aimed, directly or indirectly, at getting an answer to that question.
There are so many more but those are a few to think about.

I’d have to believe in their claim of a Great Apostasy to start with. All the rest means as much to me as the claims of any other non Christian religion.

If by “true” you mean it is a restoration of the Church started by Jesus Christ, then my two have always been.

and other practices and beliefs which have never been Christian.

If by ‘true’ you mean a religion invented by Joseph Smith, then I guess anything he invented would be OK.

Joseph’s five brothers (and probably the rest of the household) that were sleeping in his room (including some that shared his bed) on September 21, 1823 would have been awakened by the presence of Moroni. They would have testified of his visit as well.

I really don’t have a problem with JS’s brothers not awakening. A supernatural experience could have kept the others asleep and only Joseph awake.

Not that I believe anything that JS has ever said. Just offering an explanation in case one of us has such an experience while sleeping with others in the same room.

This

and this

Also, Joseph never would have offered eternal salvation in exchange for a polygamous marriage to the 14 year old daughter of one of his apostles.

These three dealing with the temple ceremonies:

**The temple endowment ceremony would not have come from the Masonry rituals that originated in the Middle Ages.

The temple endowment ceremony would likely be a spiritual, uplifting experience for everyone that goes through it, and it probably would not be so secretive.

The temple endowment ceremony would never have had the five points of fellowship in it, which came directly from the Masons, and has nothing at all to do with religion. The uncomfortable penalties, oath of vengeance, etc. would never have been in there either. If any of these things were really from God, then they’d still be in the ceremony now.**

They have nothing in common with what the temple ceremonies were like in the Old Testament and yet I have been told that this is what the LDS temple ceremonies are like - the Old Testament ceremonies. :shrug:

Unless they are sacrificing oxen on giant altars, I don’t think so…

yeah…I have seen zero evidence of temple ceremonies in ancient Isreal where there were blood oaths, men pulled their wives thru a veil, where there were secret handshakes and where they were required to wear all the odd clothing

Joseph Smith probably would not have added the word “not” to Nephi’s quote from isaiah 2:9, which he allegedly took from the Brass plates.
The bowing and humbling is in reference to idols.

Bible:
Isaiah 2:9
And the mean man boweth down,
and the great man humbleth himself:
therefore forgive them not.

Book of Mormon:
2 Nephi 12
*And the mean man boweth not down,
and the great man humbleth himself not,
therefore, forgive him not. *
(In other words, do not forgive the people who refused to bow to idols!)

Oddly, Smith did not add the negative in his “translation” of the Bible (in its current incarnation):
And the mean man boweth down,
and the great man humbleth himself:
therefore forgive them not.

Thank you for posts like this! :smiley: It is comforting to see that others really do think of these things instead of ignoring the truth.

It renounces all the distinctive LDS doctrines and everyone converts to Catholicism.

Become Catholic.

That is why we must everyday pray for these deceived souls. I know that the majority believe in their hearts they are trying to be one with Christ. But you must actually believe in the True Christ. Not the one that would let His Church fail.

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