What would your responses be to these claims?


#1
  • Jesus was ONLY a Man and not God. He NEVER claimed to be God. He spoke to God. He contrasted himself from God.

*An Omniscient being cannot exist if there is free will.

*Jesus was born of the flesh and not of the Holy Spirit

*Leviticus still applies to today


#2

[quote=crono_vivi

]* Jesus was ONLY a Man and not God. He NEVER claimed to be God. He spoke to God. He contrasted himself from God.

That’s the mystery of the Trinity. he called Himself “I AM” which is also what God the Father is called in the OT. Also, see the opening of the Gospel of John (The Word was with God and the Word was God…). Also, the Resurrection is good evidence of His divinity. Would the eye witnesses to this event die horrible deaths for it if it was just something they made up?
scripturecatholic.com/jesus_christ_divinity.html

*An Omniscient being cannot exist if there is free will.

Why? This makes no sense. God can know what choice we will make (since He can see all time), but it’s still our choice.

*Jesus was born of the flesh and not of the Holy Spirit

Then who was His dad? Have whoever made this claim prove otherwise. The OT in Isaiah also prophecises that the Messiah will be born of a virgin.
scripturecatholic.com/messianic_prophecies.html

*Leviticus still applies to today

See your earlier thread. Itsjustdave1988 answered it well.


#3

My response would be: This post is worthy of four threads. The items are too dissimilar to discuss collectively.


#4

[quote=crono_vivi]* Jesus was ONLY a Man and not God. He NEVER claimed to be God. He spoke to God. He contrasted himself from God.

*An Omniscient being cannot exist if there is free will.

*Jesus was born of the flesh and not of the Holy Spirit

*Leviticus still applies to today
[/quote]

Hi, Crono.

Each of these is an enormous controversy. I would have given each a separate thread.

I will do the last, in this post.

The rites described in Leviticus are there to foreshadow the Christ to come.

Here is Leviticus 14:1-9, for example…

1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "This is the law for the victim of leprosy at the time of his purification. He shall be brought to the priest, 3 who is to go outside the camp to examine him. If the priest finds that the sore of leprosy has healed in the leper, 4 he shall order the man who is to be purified, to get two live, clean birds, as well as some cedar wood, scarlet yarn, and hyssop. 5 The priest shall then order him to slay one of the birds over an earthen vessel with spring water in it. 6 Taking the living bird with the cedar wood, the scarlet yarn and the hyssop, the priest shall dip them all in the blood of the bird that was slain over the spring water, 7 and then sprinkle seven times the man to be purified from his leprosy. When he has thus purified him, he shall let the living bird fly away over the countryside. 8 The man being purified shall then wash his garments and shave off all his hair and bathe in water; only when he is thus made clean may he come inside the camp; but he shall still remain outside his tent for seven days. 9 On the seventh day he shall again shave off all the hair of his head, his beard, his eyebrows, and any other hair he may have, and also wash his garments and bathe his body in water; and so he will be clean.

The bird which is slain is Christ in the 2 Corinthians 5:21 form of Him-Who-did-not-know-sin-Who-was-made-to-be-sin, made to be sin in the sense that Christ ended-up being treated as though He were sin, itself. The bird allowed to fly away is sin itself. When the Christ bird is killed, and its blood splattered on the second bird, the bird flying away is sin being driven away by the sacrificial blood of Christ.

Now, if Christ has already come, why *foreshadow *Christ as He was foreshadowed beginning about 1,500 B.C.?


#5

**crono: **Jesus was born of the flesh and not of the Holy Spirit

**BibleReader: **What does that mean?

I think that mortal man, down here, has too little knowledge of the details of what is going on in the mind of God, up there, to comprehend the details of the process of the inter-relationship between the three Persons in the one Trinity.

I know this: If there is some kind of divorce between the Persons of the Trinity, critical enough to deny unity within the Godhead, at the moment of the Incarnation, then God’s oneness has been critically violated.

At a couple of points, there may have been some kind of mystical, imcomprehensible “shading” of the presence of the Holy Spirit within Jesus. For example, twice Luke says that Jesus “became filled with” or “grew in” wisdom. How is growth of this sort possible, unless the presence of the Spirit within Him was somehow not previously fully manifested?

Additionally, in the Garden before His arrest Jesus agonized. And an angel, which were carriers of “God-stuff,” so to speak, came and “strengthened” Jesus. How is agony possible, or strengthening possible, unless the presence of the Spirit in Christ were not somehow “shaded,” beforehand?


#6

[quote=crono_vivi]* Jesus was ONLY a Man and not God. He NEVER claimed to be God. He spoke to God. He contrasted himself from God.

*An Omniscient being cannot exist if there is free will.

*Jesus was born of the flesh and not of the Holy Spirit

*Leviticus still applies to today
[/quote]

Crono_vivi,

My responses would be …

Wrong (John 14:9, among many other places)

Wrong (omniscient = all-knowing; “watching somebody do something is not the same as forcing him to do it”)

Wrong (Luke 1:35)

and Wrong (Romans 7:4-6).

There is also the minor matter that the Church teaches that the four statements are wrong. To a Protestant or non-Christian that probably wouldn’t cut much ice, though.

The other responders are correct that if you want an in-depth discussion of these four points a separate thread for each would be appropriate.

  • Liberian

#7

This site might make it easier to understand: lifeteen.com/default.aspx?PageID=JCHOMEit is put in a format that teens can understand.


#8

Peace be with you!

[quote=crono_vivi]* Jesus was ONLY a Man and not God. He NEVER claimed to be God. He spoke to God. He contrasted himself from God. John 1:1.

*An Omniscient being cannot exist if there is free will. **He knows everything; he doesn’t predestine everything. **

*Jesus was born of the flesh and not of the Holy Spirit You could say that, in a sense. Jesus was born of Mary (flesh) but concieved by the Holy Spirit.

*Leviticus still applies to today I’m not sure if I understand this correctly…do you mean the old Jewish Law of Moses? If so, Paul tells us that we are justified by our faith in Christ apart from the law [of the Jews]
[/quote]

In Christ,
Rand


#9

**crono: **An Omniscient being cannot exist if there is free will.
**BibleReader: **What you are doing here is pretending to be omniscient, yourself!

How can you be so sure that within the perfection of omniscience, there is not some kind of movement generated by will?

There really is enough that is mysterious in this reality, where we live, to have critical doubts about the value of our negative speculation about God.

For instance, you go through life thinking that you “touch” things. That conclusion turns out to be wrong. What happens, when you go to “touch” something, is that the negative electric field surrounding the molecules in your finger presses against the negative electric field surrounding the molecules in the thing which you are attempting to “touch.”

Many used to go through life thinking that heavier things fell faster aside from wind resistance. That, of course, is false.

Many go through life thinking that 1 unit of velocity plus 1 unit of velocity = 2 units of velocity. Under a principle called the Lorenz Transformation, this turns out to be wrong. The velocities never add up to 2.

Many go through life thinking that they are made of solid matter. Actually, the solidity of matter in reality is an illusion. The molecules we are made of are almost entirely open space. Each atom in our physical body, were they to be enlarged so that they are about one mile in diameter, would have a semi-real nucleus about the size of a basketball in the center, with a semi-real electron orbiting about one-half mile away.

When belief after belief after belief of a seemingly reliable sort are shattered so easily by careful investigation, we should be humble about what goes on in the mind of almighty God.


#10

Pope St. Gregory the Great summed up the conclusions of the patristic thinking in these words:

[Jesus] knew the day and hour of judgment in the nature of humanity, but yet not from the nature of humanity.

St. Gregory is of course correct. Jesus did have the information since, as God, He possesses all things. What St. Gregory is saying is that Jesus, in the humility of His humanity, He chose (an act of human will) not to look. And this was because
the time of His Second Coming was not to be part of the Revelation of the Incarnate Jesus to the Church. That’s all His statement about the “Father alone knows” means: that the time of the Second Coming is withheld from the revelation of the New Covenant (which comes to us through the Incarnate Christ).

In Christ, Frances


#11

Sorry about my not-quite-on-the-topic posting; the above was meant for another thread. OOPS!

Frances


#12

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