Whats a dissenter?


#1

Alright so I have been here for a while now, and lately I have heard alot of this term dissenter being thrown around to discribe people who don’t believe what the Church believes. Now according to the Code of Cannon Law number 751 thats heresy. As seen below…

“Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or doubt, after baptism, of a truth which must be believed by divine and catholic faith. Apostasy is the total repudiation of the christian faith. Schism is the withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”

Now where is the mix up? Why are we calling these people dissenters?


#2

Is there a penalty for being a heretic?


#3

[quote=Ahimsa]Is there a penalty for being a heretic?
[/quote]

Obstinate heresy is a mortal sin, and the penalty can be rather severe.

Blessings,

Gerry


#4

Automatic excommunication. By refusing to believe what the Church believes you excommunicate yourself from the Body of Christ, because you are no longer in communion with the Pope and Bishops united to him.

To quote Fr. Corapi, “you excommunicate yourself from the Body of Christ, it doesn’t require an act of the Bishop, and I don’t care if you are a Bishop, if you don’t believe what we believe you are a Heretic.”


#5

GO READ SOME OF “CHALLENGER’S” POSTS AND TIM HAYES’ AND YOU WILL SEE AN EXAMPLE OD DISSENTERS!!!


#6

a dissenter is someone who, upon hearing a superficial version of Catholic doctrine and without making the effort to learn more, to integrate what he learns, to form his conscience and to grow in his Catholic faith, disagrees with what he hears, publicly and loudly (in the manner of a rebellious 2-yr-old) because it conflicts with his feelings and emotional needs, or would require a conversion from a sinful state of life. He is usually an individual whose power to do damage to those around him is limited by the size of his circle of influence.

a heretic is someone who has heard the full proclamation of the Gospel, has studied and fully understands Divine Revelation as protected in Church doctrine as its teaching has developed through the centuries, is fully aware of the infallibility of magesterial teaching, and yet refuses to believe and preaches openly his own version of the “truth”, and who says, with his father Satan, “I will not serve”. The damage a heretic can do is much graver because he is usually someone firmly wedged in Church hierarchy or a so-called "Catholic"university, religious order, or other institution, who wields national or global influence.


#7

[quote=Tyler Smedley]Alright so I have been here for a while now, and lately I have heard alot of this term dissenter being thrown around to discribe people who don’t believe what the Church believes. Now according to the Code of Cannon Law number 751 thats heresy. As seen below…

“Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or doubt, after baptism, of a truth which must be believed by divine and catholic faith. Apostasy is the total repudiation of the christian faith. Schism is the withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”

Now where is the mix up? Why are we calling these people dissenters?
[/quote]

I think the term “dissenter” is broader than “heresy”. I would consider someone who rejects a discipline of the Church, such as priestly celibacy, to be dissenting. However, because the necessity of priestly celibacy is not “a truth which must be believed by divine and catholic faith”, they are not heretics. Rejection of such a discipline does not constitute apostasy or schism either.

So, I think there is some value in such a term.


#8

So someone who disagrees, but does not preach openly about his disagreement, is not a heretic?


#9

Check out this article to see why dissenting on even just one issue is extremely bad:

catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0105fea1.asp


#10

From Ad Tuendam Fidem:

Canon 598 1. Those things are to be believed by divine and catholic faith which are contained in the word of God as it has been written or handed down by tradition, that is, in the single deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and which are at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn Magisterium of the Church, or by its ordinary and universal Magisterium, which in fact is manifested by the common adherence of Christ’s faithful under the guidance of the sacred Magisterium. All Christian faithful are therefore bound to avoid any contrary doctrines.

  1. Furthermore, each and everything set forth definitively by the Magisterium of the Church regarding teaching on faith and morals must be firmly accepted and held; namely, those things required for the holy keeping and faithful exposition of the deposit of faith; therefore, anyone who rejects propositions which are to be held definitively sets himself against the teaching of the Catholic Church.

#11

So to recap a dissenter is someone who disagrees with the disipline of the Church? So like priests who don’t wear collars are dissenters? That doesn’t feel right. Even if they are Catholic and they don’t believe some part of the Church’s teaching doesn’t that make them a heritic by definition, “obstinate post-baptismal denial or doubt” if they are baptised and either deny or doubt the faith then arn’t they a heritic?


#12

[quote=Tyler Smedley]So to recap a dissenter is someone who disagrees with the disipline of the Church? So like priests who don’t wear collars are dissenters? That doesn’t feel right. Even if they are Catholic and they don’t believe some part of the Church’s teaching doesn’t that make them a heritic by definition, “obstinate post-baptismal denial or doubt” if they are baptised and either deny or doubt the faith then arn’t they a heritic?
[/quote]

I think when you hear the word dissenter these days, it’s primarily a nice way of saying heretic. That’s been my impression at least.


#13

I tend to agree, are we doing them a service by watering it down like that? Dissenter sounds alot nicer then heretic, it doesn’t sound quite so bad, “Do you believe what the Church believes?” “Nope I am a dissenter” Sounds like nothing, heretic sounds like someone needs to go to confession.


#14

[quote=Tyler Smedley]I tend to agree, are we doing them a service by watering it down like that? Dissenter sounds alot nicer then heretic, it doesn’t sound quite so bad, “Do you believe what the Church believes?” “Nope I am a dissenter” Sounds like nothing, heretic sounds like someone needs to go to confession.
[/quote]

Plus, in our democratic society, dissent is seen as productive and a good thing.


#15

Would I be classed as a dissenter/heretic? I was raised Catholic and ‘fell away’ from the Church when I was no longer at home to follow her. (Prior to this I was a Catholic in very good standing with several God-children, and sponsor at some Confirmations, etc). Then my very devout mother fell ill and her faith got stronger (something I hadn’t though possible!) and I thought maybe there was something in it that I hadn’t understood before.

My sister and I accompanied our mother to Lourdes and I felt truly the touch of the Lord there (Mary was always very special to me and was the saint I adopted at my own Confirmation). The Lourdes story rung true and I was fascinated by what happened. At the same time though, it came to my attention that there were those who honoured Mary in place of Jesus (and admitted it too:eek: )

I then kind of fell away again and didn’t give it much thought until after my mum’s death. I became obsessed with whether she made it to Heaven or not and was saddened that many Catholics I knew seemed to think she hadnt due largely to an issue over the Sacrament of the Sick. I then started to question the Church as if someone with the strength and love in Jesus that my mum had/has would not be with Him in Heaven, then someone like me stood no chance;)

I then came across the wonderful world of “anti-Catholicism” and I was ripe for their picking. I was very vulnerable and confused and after not getting answers within the Church (having never found such wonderful places as this) looked outside of her for the stuff I wanted to learn about.

I never really left the Catholic Church anymore than I did in my teens, and never really went to another Church. I attended an evangelical meeting once, which was very prayer orientated, and I found out that several who go there do so on top of their other Church meetings (mostly Anglicans). I have been to Anglican Church with my boyfriend (I don’t know if you can call it Mass); his church is largely the same as a Catholic Church, believing in the Real Presence and the obligation for attendance and receipt of Eucharist when not in state of sin.

I couldn’t understand that people like my boyfriend’s family also weren’t “saved.” I mean his mum has a huge devotion to Christ (as mine did) and she does many good works in Jesus’ name. She has serious health difficulties and still voluntarily runs a Christian bookstore and is a member of various Church committees and is a warden (not sure what that is exactly) but you get the idea…

So here was the Catholic Church telling me that the two people I know/have known who have/had the most fervent love for Jesus Christ were not saved:( These same people were then telling me that those in the Church who were having pre marital sex and some not even believing in Jesus’ Real Presence were saved because they followed the Church and within her salvation was found.:confused:

So I started to research why this Church which I had always known to teach truth, appeared to teach error. And like I said, I was ripe for the picking at the hands of the anti’s. They told me I could have a personal relationship with Christ and be saved and not have to worry about it anymore. And it was attractive to someone like me who was so scared and frightened. But I was far from sure because it was too easy. But they weren’t prepared to let me go that easily…


#16

…cont’d

They decided the only way to show me was to convince me that Catholicism was wrong. And we all know that those who are well versed in Scripture (unlike myself) can show someone like me what they want a verse to say. And when I was unable to come up with a Catholic answer again and again and again it started to convince me that they were right. I mean if the CC was right, how could they say all this stuff? How could these people profess love in Jesus and yet hate His Church? The only logical answer at the time was that it wasn’t His Church anymore. That it had apostasied (sp?) and that the Church was all believers in Jesus, not an institution.

This is only part of the tale (there is a lot more that could take ages to share:p ) but sufficient I think for these purposes. I am giving serious thought to returning properly to Catholicism but it may take me some time. At the moment am I a dissenter? If I ultimately find in favour of Catholicism does my dissent need to be confessed (as opposed to being sorry for not understanding?) If I think that rejoining the Catholic Church is wrong am I a dissenter then? Or do I then become a fully fledged heretic? If I returned to Catholicism as a hypocrite (which it would be at the moment with too many unresolved doubts) would I be a dissenter then? Sorry if you think I have hijacked this thread however I thought this was relevant.


#17

Teresas,

I think I will modify my definition of dissenter. A dissenter is a heretic who wants to change the Church’s teaching. This is not you. Are you a heretic? I say no. Check out the definition of heresy from the first post. Notice the word “obstinate.” Here are some definitions of that word:

[list=1]
*][adj] persisting in a reactionary stand
*][adj] resistant to guidance or discipline; “Mary Mary quite contrary”; “an obstinate child with a violent temper”; “a perverse mood”; “wayward behavior
*][adj] stubbornly persistent in wrongdoing
*][v] persist stubbornly; “he obstinates himself against all rational arguments
[/list]I don’t think your doubt falls into this category. Therefore, you are not a heretic. I think you are sincerely searching for the Truth with an open heart (obstinate would imply a closed heart). Unfortunately you have been misled by both non-Catholics and ignorant Catholics. Remember, the Church only declares that canonized saints are in Heaven, It doesn’t declare anyone specific is in Hell (not even Judas and Hitler). Likewise, the Church doesn’t say anyone on earth now will or will not go to Heaven.

continued…


#18

Remember only Jesus can judge us (we’ve talked about this before :smiley: ). Just because you don’t receive a sacrament doesn’t mean you are condemned. If you reject the sacraments with full knowledge and consent, then you may be in trouble. This knowledge and consent can only be judged by God (and the specific individual knows in their heart). A woman was once worried that her son was in Hell since he committed suicide. Padre Pio, moved by the grace of God, was able to see that he had repented at the last second. This person did not have the sacrament of extreme unction (anointing of the sick), just like your mother. That’s an extreme example. But think about all the people who die instantly in car accidents, plane crashes, etc., etc. without getting anointed. Are all of these people in Hell? Of course not.

As for your other doubts about Catholic teaching, keep doing your best to learn (reading the Catechism, while dry, is a good idea). But once you come to terms with the fact that the authority of the Church was instituted by Jesus and protected by the Holy Spirit, then the rest comes easy! And of course, keep praying!!!:slight_smile:


#19

I would agree. May God guide you back to the Truth. You have my prayers.


#20

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