When a baby dies during Baptism


#21

Your words betray an ignorance of the Catholic faith.
Perhaps you should read through the Catechism.


#22

You seem to have little or no understanding of what a mortal sin is. It is not some happenstance activity, like making a mistake. It is deliberate choice to reject God. It is for real; not just some silly superstition or some made-up rules to keep us “under the thumb” of the Church. and so if you reject God - whether that is an instant before you die, or years before you die, and you do not reconcile with God, then God loves and respects you so much that He will honor your choice. That is a point that people don’t want to deal with, mostly because they don’t want to take responsibility for their chocies. They always want to blame someone - their parents didn’t love them, or raise them right; someone else lead them into the sin (like they were dumb sheep, not individuals making a choice); the list goes on and on as to who it is we can blame, rather than taking responsibility for our choice.

God so loves us that he gave us free will - the opportunity to choose good or evil. And God so loves us that He respects the choices we make - a point that many try to deny, balming it all on someone else, when in fact it was we, ourselves, as individuals, who made the choice.

God does not play “Gotcha!”. He is not some distant, remote angry father, watching us like a hawk and just waiting for us to “make a mistake” so He can torture us. As found in Isaiah 38:17: “In your love you kept me from the pit of destruction; you have put all my sins behind your back”. And Isaiah was not a Catholic… but he, too, repented.


#23

Tragedies might make it seem that God is callous and distant, or that he has abandoned us altogether. For a time I even felt like this myself. But it is important to remember that God is not indifferent to our plight. He feels our suffering as though it was his own, and he himself suffered and died on the cross as a human being.

When bad things happen, it isn’t because God thinks it’s funny. He hasn’t abandoned us.


#24

Tragedies happen as well in other faiths.i remember a big hotel fire were hundreds of pentecostals were billeted and dozens of them perished in a very horrifying death. Also, over a decade ago, several baptist youths died ,when roof collapsed on the building they were attending for fellowship.


#25

Not Catholic law, the law of God

No Catholic Law.

But how do we know what happens at the hour of death. We pray that Saints, angels and Jesus will be with us at the hour of our death. We must trust in God that He gives each of us an choice at that hour.

Too risky. Stakes too high to put faith and trust on what happens too our souls on what may or may not happen on our death bed.

Have you heard of contrition for sins?

Yes. Though I can’t say I related very much to feeling like I let God down if I sin when I was in the Catholic faith. Afterall the point/goal of life under Catholicism is too not die in mortal sin as 1 mortal sin on the soul and that person goes to Hell. No exceptions. Only after leaving Catholicism do I feel like I let God down when I sin and try to not sin because I don’t want to upset God and not go to Hell instead of only working hard to not sin so I don’t end up in Hell.


#26

When we commit a grave sin, it is mortal under certain conditions. In order to meet those conditions one knows it is a grave sin and freely chooses to do it anyway. The person in mortal sin did not just accidently step in it like gum on a hot sidewalk, they chose to reject God.

There will not be one person in hell who did not choose to reject Christ. Not one.

We cannot commit a mortal sin “accidently”.


#27

You are working from some inaccurate information. God would never do a “gotcha” and send some unsuspecting person to hell. If someone willfully rejects God, penance and contrition… the Catechism explains it beautifully (bold added):

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P4D.HTM

1450 “Penance requires . . . the sinner to endure all things willingly, be contrite of heart, confess with the lips, and practice complete humility and fruitful satisfaction.”

Contrition

1451 Among the penitent’s acts contrition occupies first place. Contrition is “sorrow of the soul and detestation for the sin committed, together with the resolution not to sin again.”

1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called “perfect” (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.


#28

There is a reason these things happen. But we won’t know those reasons during our lifetime. We just have to trust in Him and in His mercy.


#29

The book of Job is a good place to go when struggling with suffering and tragedies.


#30

Agree totally. I am always perplexed when after a near miss, someone says something like “God was watching out for us.” In reality it is either now, or later; how much later does not matter as a speck compared to eternity.

Give thanks to God in all things. Comfort the sorrowful.


#31

Some question will ONLY be answered in our Afterlife; TRAGEDY is often not understandable by human logic.; buy we can know in FAITH, that God is in charge, and that God CAN make good from what we discern as an “evil.”

As to your OPQ

That baby would have received Baptism of Desire and have been saved.

GBY, Pray very much


#32

You seem to have little or no understanding of what a mortal sin is. It is not some happenstance activity, like making a mistake. It is deliberate choice to reject God. It is for real; not just some silly superstition or some made-up rules to keep us “under the thumb” of the Church.

The categorization of sins into mortal and venial is found only in Roman Catholicism. Orthodoxy has existed the same length of time and do not have that categorization. To them all sin is sin and separate a person from God. There isn’t a category that says if you sin A type of sin and die you won’t go too hell but if you sin 1 B type of sin and die, you go to hell.

Also, it makes more sense to use scare tactics to get people to obey. Fear is a major motivator and great tool of control. Keep people under the thumb of the church, because the more partitioners there are, the more money and control and influence the the church has over the population. Besides Catholicism wasn’t made so widespread by preaching love anyway, it spread by telling people, “if you don’t follow us you will suffer eternal torment.”

and so if you reject God - whether that is an instant before you die, or years before you die, and you do not reconcile with God, then God loves and respects you so much that He will honor your choice.

You mean reject the Catholic Churches interpretation of God and morality. Just because a man made institution interprets scripture one way on certain topics and says x is true. Doesn’t mean it is.

And like I said before, make 1 mortal sin and die before confessing it too a priest and that person goes to hell. No exceptions. But it makes sense seeing how to not die in mortal sin is the end goal of Catholicism.


#33

The last time I checked, the Church was not man made - it was made by Christ.

The Orthodox and the Catholic Church were for centuries one Church. Given that the Catholic Church considers the sacraments of the Orthodox Church to be valid, I will leve for others to sort through whether or not the Catholic and the Orthodox are still one true Church; but the separation between the two is far different than the separation of the Catholic and the Protestants.

And it is no secret (although it is a fact little understood by many in the pews) that the approach to theology differs in many aspects between the Orthodox and the Roman rite; but the same can be said for those Eastern rites which are in union with Rome (often called “uniates”, sometimes as a less than positive comment). One example between the Eastern rites and the Roman rites is marriage; in the Roman rite the couple is held to administer the sacrament; in Eastern rites it is the priest who administers; and the Catholic Church is comfortable with the differing opinion without a need to “rectify” or “clarify”.

I will gladly let any poster who is Eastern rite or knows their theology more intimately than I do respond to your comments about the differentiation in sin.

However, I challenge yo about the issue of control; that is just a bit short of hysterical, as the Church has little or no control over Catholics; otherwise why would we have gone from @ 70% Mass attendance in the mid 1950’s to now somewhere between 20 and 25%? Yeah , that certainly shows a lot of control and gain money. Not.

And I will gladly stand on my comment about “committing a mortal sin and then dying”. There is no “Gotcha!” involved with God’s response to the dead person. Mortal sin is not just something"bad"; it is a rejection of God. And God so loves us that He gave us free will, to accept or reject Him; and He honors both.

It is a sophomoric approach to reality that sets up a question “Well, so and so committed a mortal sin but really, if they had lived longer, they would have repented.” Rally? Says who? Only the sophomore who wants to play word games, or is afraid to face up to the reality of their own choices… Plenty of people commit mortal sins, and don’t repent, as can be seen by their abandoning Mass. Whether they repent literally at death, or as Padre Pio suggested, are gioven one lst chance after death is between each individual and God. But questioning the ability of someone to reject God and choose evil, and imply that is somehow “unfair” is to minimize free will and the choices we make.


#34

This is contrary to the teaching of the Church. Why do you keep repeating it?


#35

What exactly is meant by “Catholic law”? Divine or ecclesiastical law? Ecclesiastical law is man-made, while divine law comes from God. An example of an ecclesiastical law can be found canon 378.1 n.3 in the Code of Canon Law. It states that a priest must be at least 35 to become a bishop. This can be changed by the pope if he deems it appropriate; in fact, the age requirement was only 30 in the old 1917 Code. Ecclesiastical laws can also be dispensed in certain circumstances. Divine laws, however, come from God and cannot be changed. No church authority, even the pope, can change divine law. Therefore, the doctrines on sin and salvation are defined dogma and cannot be changed because they are part of divine law.

If you think that it is “too risky” to live past the age of reason because the possibility of sin comes into play, then you are not trusting God and put salvation entirely into the hands of human beings and not God. Yes, mortal sin condemns a person to Hell, but we can avoid mortal sin if we trust God. There is no point in worrying about future mortal sins and to live in anxiety because of it (and I’m saying this a person who used to suffer from scrupulosity). If you trust God and don’t deliberately choose to turn against Him with the full consent of the will, it is impossible to commit a mortal sin. It is also impossible to commit a mortal sin accidentally.

The Church also recognizes that our goal in avoiding sin is not based on the fear of Hell, but on love of God. A healthy fear of Hell is good and necessary, but excessive fear of hell is simply a lack of trust. But our reasons for repenting of past sins and avoiding future sins should not be based only on this, but on love of God. If a person’s repentance of their sins - both venial and mortal, is because of their love, this would be an Act of Perfect Contrition and all mortal sins are forgiven; in other words, they will be saved even if they did not have a chance to go to Confession before they died.

Now another question mentioned here is that even if a person lived a very holy life, they will still go to Hell if they happen to die with one mortal sin on their soul. A couple of things need to be pointed out:

  1. A mortal sin is a deliberate turning away from God. If you lived a good life but at the end of your life you chose deliberately to reject God, then of course you’ll condemn yourself for that.

However…

  1. Only God knows if someone is truly sorry for their sins. Unlike human beings, he doesn’t simply look on the surface. The world cares about our actions but not our intentions; however, God also sees the heart.

  2. There are some things we do not understand in this life, and this is where faith completes reason. As St. Thomas Aquinas wrote in the first question of the Summa, although man should not seek what is above his reason, God reveals many things that are above our reason which simply need to be accepted by faith. If a person simply trusts God entirely, there is no reason to be afraid of sin and death.

This kind of excessively scrupulous thinking only causes us to put ourselves back into slavery and bondage even though Christ came to free us.


#36

Even if the distinction between mortal and venial sin is found only in Catholicism (not just Roman Catholicism; there are also Eastern Catholic Churches who are in full communion with Rome), this does not prove that the distinction is theologically incorrect. First of all, in regard to faith and morality, the majority in the world is often wrong. Secondly, this doctrine is perfectly Biblical as well. “If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray” (1 John 5:16).

The Church does not use scare tactics for people to obey. Even excommunication is not a scare tactic. However, people who have an inadequate understanding of the faith will misinterpret this and believe that God is some angry distant being that just waits for us to mess us. Even since Adam and Eve sinned, people have been afraid of God and running away from Him.

The Church did not expand in the first century by preaching fear. Read the Acts of the Apostles. Did the apostles go around threatening people with eternal damnation? No; when they did mention damnation, they were simply making people aware of an objective truth. They weren’t threatening. Even God doesn’t try to control us in this way; he ultimately gives us the choice to accept Him or reject Him. He doesn’t send us to hell; we choose it for ourselves.

If you think of mortal sin in the way you do, then you are ironically underestimating the gravity of mortal sin. There are conditions involved, and even if only one is not met, there is no mortal sin. It’s actually more difficult to commit a mortal sin than most people realize.

The Catholic Church’s “interpretation” of God and morality is the only fully correct one in the world. Period. Moral relativism is not an option, and dogma can’t be changed even by the pope.

You said: “But it makes sense seeing how to not die in mortal sin is the end goal of Catholicism.”

No, this is not true; the end goal, so to speak, is to know, love, and serve the Lord. And if you honestly try to do that, then it is impossible to commit mortal sin. Period.


#37

No, it’s not contrary to Catholic teaching. That’s why I keep repeating it.


#38

The teaching of the Catholic Church is that Jesus Christ is not bound by the Sacraments He established. He attached Sacramental graces to them, but that grace comes from Him first. This doesn’t count as coming from outside the Church, because obviously Jesus is the Head of the Church, His Body.

He established the Sacraments as the ordinary source of Sacramental and sanctifying grace. However, He can give all His grace and mercy to whomever He feels like. So yes, if He wants to do it, He can give all the graces of the Sacraments to those who never received them in life.

If He wants to.

If Jesus Christ comes to you at the hour of your death, and you are contrite, He will know your heart and be kind to you. He goes after the wandering sheep. He didn’t go to all the trouble of dying on the Cross for you, to leave you in the lurch if circumstances are unfortunate. He can hear your Confession; He is the original “persona Christi.”

However, it is stupid to put ourselves in a position to have to rely upon extraordinary grace, if we don’t have to. Living a good life and using the Sacraments designed for us is a lot safer than waiting past the last moment, and hoping Jesus will let us slide in.

Because if you wait that long, maybe by then you won’t be sorry for your sins.

(If you are interested in grace and the many ways it is received, you want to start reading books on theology.)


#39

Read the citation from the Catechism of the Catholic Church that I posted above, please.


#40

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