When did executing heretics become immoral?


#143

I named both Papal Documents regarding the Templars by name. Both are available on the ETWN and Vatican websites.

You also note reading through this thread several Catholic posters affirm what I have said. These are not secrets and are freely available for review.


#144

The Church’s stance on capital punishment is founded on the dignity of human beings and our right to life. It also takes into account innocence and the protection of it.
In our modern society, life can be protected without terminating the life of a dangerous guilty party, by use of incarceration. Hence the stance of JP2 and Francis, which are both founded on the same principles but reflect the practicalities of the day.


#145

I think in the context of executing heretics, it wasn’t really about “saving lives” per se, save perhaps in the spiritual sense. Nobody died from the belief that Jesus was not a part of the trinity, for instance, that is until someone killed them for it.


#146

I was addressing your comments on capital punishment


#147

The name of the gentleman escapes me presently, but I am sure someone can google it.

A few years ago the founder/owner of a file sharing site called MegaUpload was given a sentence of around 125 years for charges pertaining to piracy. Considering one can actually commit murder and receive around 11 years in Western Europe this is quite harsh punishment.

As marcarbe as the logic was behind it while killing someone obviously caused harm, piracy caused harm to the lives/occupations/employment of many thousands of people. Ergo, it deserved a far harsher punishment according to the American legal system than had this gentleman gone out and performed a school shooting.

Heretics of the day were very similar, in that they threatened the fabric of the reality that held the theocracy together. As soon as you doubt the church is the instrument of God, individuals tend to reject its overarching power. We saw this best in the Reformation after all. Heretics threatened the status quo, which was far more valued than the lives of any number of humans.

A modern example is Ireland. Thirty years ago homosexual marriage was unthinkable, indeed homosexual inclinations themselves were illegal until the early 90’s. Once the scandals emerged that made people doubt in the authority of the church, it’s own theocratic control over Irish state simply evaporated overnight, to the extent they now have a homosexual man as their prime minister.

Twenty years ago, you’d probably have been charged with blasphemy and promoting sodomy for suggesting that could even happen (Blasphemy interestingly is still a criminal offense in Ireland, although since the sex scandals hasn’t to my knowledge been enforced wheras prior it was regularly used to promote Catholic interests).


#148

[quote=“Verdanty, post:1, topic:454075, full:true”]
Not a troll post, but a genuine inquiry.

The Papal Bull, ‘Exsurge Domine,’ of Jun 15, 1520, condemned the errors of Martin Luther and his followers. one of them in particular which drew special attention from Pope Leo X intrigues me:

#33. That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit.

This proclamation by Pope Leo X proves the Catholic Church taught that the burning of heretics was acceptable to God. [/quote]

Your accusation does not follow. Read the sentence again:

#33. That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit.

Guy 1) I am against spousal abuse!
Guy 2) When did you stop beating your wife?
You can do better than this disconnected smear.
You are looking for material to confirm your prejudice.
(on a side note, you are nowhere near the first person to attempt this here, it has been tried many times with this exact same passage of ED and it amounts to nothing. It’s very transparent.)


#149

The human condition is messy and cruel. Your prejudicial smearing is not going to help this.
You should recognize that if we are going to cast stones, the godless atheist and pagan governments of the last century killed more people in the blink of any eye than all the religious people ever. And continue to kill through abortion and other crimes. If this is a particular conncern of yours (it should be) you might want to start with a mirror.


#150

As much as I would love to share the very well known statements from certain “pagan” leaders where they professed their undying loyalty publicly to certain well known mainstream religions I have been threatened with a ban if I ever do so again so cannot having done so previously.

I am sure you can find them with a quick google search, secular groups tend to have them well posted in regards to this claim that certain infamous world leaders were Atheists.


#151

First they came for the Heretics, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Heretic.

Then they came for the Atheists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not an Atheist.

Then they came for the Non-Christians and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Non-Christian.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.


#152

Hi!

Have you considered when this was stated and the reasons why it was stated?

You did not read Phil’s attempt to inform you, did you?

Maran atha!

Angel


#153

You do know they don’t burn heretics anymore, right?


#154

Just warming up the poem in case the state starts getting any ideas from folks on this thread.


#155

They actually do, see Liberia and Uganda goig after “witches” and the Uganda “kill the gays” bill which for a time enjoyed Catholic sanction before the media pounced on it.

Not last century, around two years ago.

Edit: Almost four years! Oh how time does fly.

Strong language in this link, but merely how non-believers have interpreted this.


#156

Hi, T!

Not just accepted but influenced them… back then wars raged on whenever a monarch coveted the wife, land, wealth, workforce of another; do you recall Vlad the Impaler? (it was the first name that came to mind) He is a clear example of what people did. One of the instruments that the Church used was the fear of God–people would listen for fear of hell, even those who did not believe (you know, the ‘just in casers’); another tool was peace through marriage–instead of going to war… make love not war, was another implementation (and we often forget that the people that suffered the most, as it happens today, during times of unrest are the poor, children, and elderly).

Today, people think that democracy was a new invention and that blood-feuds are that thing between the hillbillies… “goodwill” is not something that man endeavors on just because it is virtuous; without the Church being instrumental (as you noted even today) we would be in total chaos–just check our recent history, every time a despot is removed strife, murder, and genocide follows.

Maran atha!

Angel


#157

Hi!

Yet, who determines that rule? What is the definition of blasphemer, atheist and heretics?

I’m pretty sure that as “witches” most heretics and atheist comprised of general population and not the elite… are you sure that the state was and is interested in Divine Justice?

If the Church were to be controlled by the state (some places in the world have religious affiliations that serve as the state religion) do you think that the Church, in today’s military prowess, supported by a lukewarm body of “Believers,” be able to reject anything that the state determines as “God’s will?”

Maran atha!

Angel


#158

BZZZZZT.
Try again.
Hitler did not kill in the name of the Catholic Church, and the Pope was not his sycophant. Old canards.

One thing that seems to be common to militant atheists, they are as much or more fundamentalist than any fundamentalist. Taking quotes and ideas rigidly out of context (aka proof-texting) is a telling feature.


#159

so when your initial prejudices and smears are slammed dunked, you resort to more smears and half truths.
You are embarrassing yourself.
Pope Benedict endorsed the murder of gays?
No sane person is with you here. You’re pretty much floating off to sea by yourself.


#160

Do you understand that you are asking the “civilized” world to go back to the gladiator days and the franks’ guillotines…your basically clamoring “bring back Hun!”

May the Holy Spirit Bring you Peace!

Maran atha!

Angel


#161

Did I say that? No, check both links again.

What I am saying is that “heretics”, in this instance gays, are still presecuted in parts of the world by members of the church; and such members today have enjoyed the support of the highest clergy in these efforts.

I urge you to read into this case, there is no exaggeraton. Modern africa in many respects resembles medeval Europe in this aspect.

My initial claims remain as is, and you know full well Im not allowed to respond to your claims about world leaders. Pick another venue and Ill give you enough paperwork on the subject to finish off whats left of the rainforest.


#162

I question your source. I clearly remember the Bishops of Uganda strongly CONDEMNING the bill back when it was passed. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which was compiled under Cardinal Ratzinger’s watch (who later became Pope Benedict), condemns mistreatment of homosexuals… I do not buy for a second that Pope Benedict sanctioned the murder of gay people.


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