When do we receive the Holy Ghost?

[right]JMJ[/right]
Gods peace be with you friends of God,

At BSF International Bible study my wife was told that we receive the Holy Ghost with our faith in Jesus. When we accept Jesus we would of course then receive the Holy Ghost.

When do we receive the Holy Ghost? At baptism? At confirmation? At acceptance of Jesus as our personal Lord and savior?

I have read Acts 8:14-17 and 19:1-6. These passages say we receive the Holy Ghost by laying on of hands.

I would love to hear from the non-Catholics here as well as the Catholics. Please give some Scripture support or something from the early Church as evidence too if you can.

Thank you for the help.

A prisoner of Christ,:bowdown2: my personal Lord and savior,

I think you asked when do we recieve the Holy Ghost.

For years and years in Catholic Schools we were taught:

  1. At Baptism all our sins are forgiven AND Original Sin is wiped away. That is when our name is written in the Church. That is when we recieve the INDELLABLE stamp forever, it is the stamp of identification as a Christian.

  2. Then later when we are Confirmed we recieve a “Confirmation Name” This is when we recieve The Holy Ghost.We recieve the Holy Spirit at Confirmation.

we receive the Holy Spirit at baptism because we are baptized in the Name of the Trinity, and because we are anointed with chrism. The sacrament of confirmation, which is so intimately linked with baptism as our Christian initiation, brings the fullness of the Holy Spirit and releases His gifts, because of the laying on of hands and the invocation of the Holy Spirit, and anointing with chrism. In spite of the fact that in the western Church, in many countries, the actual time of baptism and confirmation has been separated, in actuality they are very close, and our initiation is incomplete without confirmation. Both sacraments impart an indelible seal on the soul and may not be repeated.

We become a temple of the HS at baptism and we receive the gifts of the HS at that time, typically. I have included a few scriptures at your request.

Eph 1

13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Acts

2:38 Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.

see acts 2:33 to see HS as promise, poured out

Confirmation streghtens us; makes us more ready to go out and spread the word. It increases grace in us, etc.

God is free to pour out his gifts or his Spirit before someone is baptized. He did so in Acts 10:47 on gentiles, so they decided to baptize them. Also, someone could some time after baptism or confirmation become more in tune with the gifts and experience them more fully.

[quote=Pug]We become a temple of the HS at baptism and we receive the gifts of the HS at that time, typically. I have included a few scriptures at your request.

Eph 1

Acts

see acts 2:33 to see HS as promise, poured out

Confirmation streghtens us; makes us more ready to go out and spread the word. It increases grace in us, etc.

God is free to pour out his gifts or his Spirit before someone is baptized. He did so in Acts 10:47 on gentiles, so they decided to baptize them. Also, someone could some time after baptism or confirmation become more in tune with the gifts and experience them more fully.
[/quote]

Hi-
A problem I see here, first don’t catholics baptize at 8 days? the two scriptures you mentioned, can an 8 day old listen and believe? or can they repent?. Don’t think so. Just a thought.
Dave

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pug
We become a temple of the HS at baptism and we receive the gifts of the HS at that time, typically. I have included a few scriptures at your request.

Eph 1

Acts

see acts 2:33 to see HS as promise, poured out

Confirmation streghtens us; makes us more ready to go out and spread the word. It increases grace in us, etc.

God is free to pour out his gifts or his Spirit before someone is baptized. He did so in Acts 10:47 on gentiles, so they decided to baptize them. Also, someone could some time after baptism or confirmation become more in tune with the gifts and experience them more fully.

[quote]Hi-
A problem I see here, first don’t catholics baptize at 8 days? the two scriptures you mentioned, can an 8 day old listen and believe? or can they repent?. Don’t think so. Just a thought.
Dave

[/quote]

As usual…you forget that Baptism is compared to circumcision, and that the profession of faith was made by the parents on the child’s behalf to insure that the child was raised in his faith. Confirmation is the Catholic version of baptism in the Holy Spirit.

If you are saved, you are regenerated by virtue of the fact that the Holy Ghost is now in you.

Now the question is, when does man get the Spirit?

Ephesians 1:13 says, “In Him, Christ, you also after listening to the message of the truth, the gospel of your salvation, having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.”

So you hear the message, you believe, you are sealed.

Also in Acts 10 Peter begins to declare the gospel Acts 10:34, “Opening his mouth Peter said…,” and it goes on to explain the gospel. Right in the middle of his speech, in fact, verse 44 says, “While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon those who that were listening to the message.”

Would it be fair to assume that these poeple have just been regenerated? It says that all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also. They were saved, regenerated.

Check out the next verse, verse 46, “For they hearing them speak with tongues and exalting God. ‘Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did.’” Here’s where the water comes in. It’s coming in after regeneration. After they have certainty that they belong to God because now they are in the Spirit.
After they have been regenerated. After they have Jesus inside of them, having been cleansed by faith. After they have the knowledge that they have eternal life, according to John in 1 John 5. Now water comes into play. To me, this is a very profound biblical proof that water is not necessary for salvation.

When people become Christian, they get baptized as they ought because Jesus commanded it. But they get baptized because they’ve been saved, regenerated, not in order to get saved.

To come back to your question, the Holy Ghost washes over the new believer, He regenerates him at the moment of newfound belief. Since infants and newborns cannot have that newfound belief yet, they recieve the Holy Ghost upon confirmation.

I hope I was clear enough in my explanation, you see, english is not my first language. And sometimes I have to muddle through. I apologized in advance for my murky explanation.

God Bless !

[quote=RobinHood]If you are saved, you are regenerated by virtue of the fact that the Holy Ghost is now in you.

Now the question is, when does man get the Spirit?

Ephesians 1:13 says, “In Him, Christ, you also after listening to the message of the truth, the gospel of your salvation, having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.”

So you hear the message, you believe, you are sealed.

Also in Acts 10 Peter begins to declare the gospel Acts 10:34, “Opening his mouth Peter said…,” and it goes on to explain the gospel. Right in the middle of his speech, in fact, verse 44 says, “While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon those who that were listening to the message.”

Would it be fair to assume that these poeple have just been regenerated? It says that all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also. They were saved, regenerated.

Check out the next verse, verse 46, “For they hearing them speak with tongues and exalting God. ‘Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did.’” Here’s where the water comes in. It’s coming in after regeneration. After they have certainty that they belong to God because now they are in the Spirit.
After they have been regenerated. After they have Jesus inside of them, having been cleansed by faith. After they have the knowledge that they have eternal life, according to John in 1 John 5. Now water comes into play. To me, this is a very profound biblical proof that water is not necessary for salvation.

When people become Christian, they get baptized as they ought because Jesus commanded it. But they get baptized because they’ve been saved, regenerated, not in order to get saved.

To come back to your question, the Holy Ghost washes over the new believer, He regenerates him at the moment of newfound belief. Since infants and newborns cannot have that newfound belief yet, they recieve the Holy Ghost upon confirmation.

I hope I was clear enough in my explanation, you see, english is not my first language. And sometimes I have to muddle through. I apologized in advance for my murky explanation.

God Bless !
[/quote]

What about sin after baptism? What exactly is a quasi Catholic?

Protestant denominations have countless interpretations to offer on this question – you can read the “proof-texts” and take your choice. Or, you can believe what the Apostles taught the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church before the New Testament was ever written, which tells you what the words of the NT really mean.

The usual way the Holy Spirit is conferred is through Baptism. The Holy Spirit is always conferred by the Sacrament of Baptism. Every Christian is baptized – born again – by water and the Spirit (John 3:3-5). “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body” – the body of Christ, 1 Cor 12:13.

Catechism of the Catholic Church 1265 Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte “a new creature,” an adopted son of God, who has become “a partaker in the divine nature,” member of Christ and co-heir with him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit.

“. . .Confirmation is the full outpouring of the Holy Spirit as once granted to the apostles on the day of Pentecost.” CCC 1302

But the Spirit moves where He wills and is not limited to the Sacraments or by the Sacraments.

The New Testament is not an instruction book in Christianity. It is the literary record of the spiritual life of the People of God, the New Israel – the Catholic Church – during the first 100 years or so of her existence.

The New Testament is a mirror reflection of the teaching of the Church who wrote it.

Jesus didn’t leave us a book; he left us a Church as our teacher.
The Church, in turn, wrote the NT. She selected, collected, canonized, formed, and named the NT and the Bible when she was nearly 400 years old.

JMJ Jay

What do you mean by ‘sin after baptism’?

I’m not sure what you are asking of me. I will try my best to answer you once I understand your question.
What is a quasi-Catholic? I believe in most Catholic beliefs, but not all. I’ve been searching through the catechism and the Bible. I need to have a thourough understanding of both before I can announce that I’m a Catholic.

I can honestly say though that I am a Christian.

Hi

Do you think the Holy Spirit is like our conscience?
Do you think it helps us make the right decisions in our life?
In your opinion what are the benefit’s of the Holy Spirit?
Just a few questions.
Davehttp://forums.catholic.com/images/icons/icon11.gif

Acts 2:38 AND 39 state (by Peter), "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you AND your children and to all that are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to Him.
This makes clear the necessary connection between baptism and salvation.

God gives us His grace in baptism as attested to in the New Testament. The sacred writers tell us that it is through baptism that we are saved - washed of our sins, regenerated, etc. See Acts 2:38-39, 22:16; Rom. 6:1-4; 1 Cor. 6:11, 12:13; Gal. 2:11-12; Titus 3:5; 1 Pet.3: 18-22. They are unanimous.

Martin Luther even affirmed the necessity of baptism. He wrote - “Baptism is no human plaything but is instituted by God Himself. Moreover, it is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. We are not to regard it as a indifferent matter, then, like putting on a new coat (in other words, like a mere ordinace). It is of the greatest importance that we regard baptism as excellent, glorious and exalted.” (Large Catechism 4:6). (Italics and bolding are mine)

All of the writers of the New Testament and our Church Fathers as well as (one) of the leaders of the Reformation understood that Baptism imparted the Holy Spirit and is necessary for salvation.
The doctirne of Baptism being only a “sign” and not necessary for salvation and that it does not impart the Holy Spirit is a new concept and was never taught by the Church - or Jesus or His Apostles.

This of course, does not restrict God from issuing His grace on whom He sees fit, whenever He sees fit (as stated by Katholikos). This is just the usual way we intitially receive the Holy Spirit.

Robinhood,

You have posted well and I am sure you will do well in the future! Welcome home and to the forum.

[quote=Katholikos]…The New Testament is not an instruction book in Christianity. It is the literary record of the spiritual life of the People of God, the New Israel – the Catholic Church – during the first 100 years or so of her existence.

The New Testament is a mirror reflection of the teaching of the Church who wrote it.

Jesus didn’t leave us a book; he left us a Church as our teacher.
The Church, in turn, wrote the NT. She selected, collected, canonized, formed, and named the NT and the Bible when she was nearly 400 years old.

JMJ Jay
[/quote]

[right]JMJ[/right]
[left]Katholikos,[/left]
[left] [/left]
[left]As allways you back your theology well with facts![/left]
[left] [/left]
[left]Great job and clear thought. I can see the Holy Ghost working in you. Now if others whom need it could only ‘see’ it? Thats a subject for another thread though isn’t it.[/left]
[left] [/left]
[left]A prisoner of Christ,[/left]

Found someone else who believed that we receive the Holy Spirit in baptism.

Protestant early Church historian, J.N.D. Kelly says, " From the beginning baptism was the universally accepted rite of admission to the Church…As regards its significance, it was always held to convey the remission of sins…we descend into the water ‘dead’ and come out again ‘alive’; we receive a white robe which symbolizes the Spirit…the Spirit is God Himself dwelling in the believer and the resulting life is a recreation. Prior to baptism…our heart was the abode of demons…(but) baptism supplies us with the weapons for our spiritual warfare." (Early Christian Doctrines, 193-4).

Go to CA home page, Library, Sacraments.

[quote=Malachi4U]Robinhood,

You have posted well and I am sure you will do well in the future! Welcome home and to the forum.
[/quote]

I thank you for the kind words, and I will strive to be as clear as possible possibly even help someone who may need.

Thanks again Malachai4u.

GBU

[quote=Katholikos]Protestant denominations have countless interpretations to offer on this question – you can read the “proof-texts” and take your choice. Or, you can believe what the Apostles taught the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church before the New Testament was ever written, which tells you what the words of the NT really mean.

The usual way the Holy Spirit is conferred is through Baptism. The Holy Spirit is always conferred by the Sacrament of Baptism. Every Christian is baptized – born again – by water and the Spirit (John 3:3-5). “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body” – the body of Christ, 1 Cor 12:13.

Catechism of the Catholic Church 1265 Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte “a new creature,” an adopted son of God, who has become “a partaker in the divine nature,” member of Christ and co-heir with him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit.

“. . .Confirmation is the full outpouring of the Holy Spirit as once granted to the apostles on the day of Pentecost.” CCC 1302

But the Spirit moves where He wills and is not limited to the Sacraments or by the Sacraments.

The New Testament is not an instruction book in Christianity. It is the literary record of the spiritual life of the People of God, the New Israel – the Catholic Church – during the first 100 years or so of her existence.

The New Testament is a mirror reflection of the teaching of the Church who wrote it.

Jesus didn’t leave us a book; he left us a Church as our teacher.
The Church, in turn, wrote the NT. She selected, collected, canonized, formed, and named the NT and the Bible when she was nearly 400 years old.

JMJ Jay
[/quote]

Hi
I feel that you are very wrong when you speak of the New Testament coming from the church and not God. 2 Tim 3:16 says that All Scripture is God-Breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness. The catholic church thinks that it has the authority over God’s word and your post is a fine example of that.
Dave.

[quote=oudave]Hi
I feel that you are very wrong when you speak of the New Testament coming from the church and not God. 2 Tim 3:16 says that All Scripture is God-Breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness. The catholic church thinks that it has the authority over God’s word and your post is a fine example of that.
Dave.
[/quote]

Scripture is from God and God-breathed – but it was breathed into, written by the hands of, and preserved by Christians who were part of the ONLY Church in town: The Catholic Church. Only the Catholic and the Orthodox Churches have the “roots” and can trace our lineage directly back in history to the NT authors. The Catholic Church believes that Sacred Tradition is also “God-breathed” – when Christ breathed upon the Apostles in the upper room and conferred the Holy Spirit upon them.

That the Church claims her responsibility to interpret Sacred Scripture is in no way a matter of demeaning Scripture, but rather taking her mission, and the truth of salvation seriously.

Sometimes conversations about the Holy Spirit get bogged down in trying to limit the “receipt of the Spirit” to a single event. But we receive the Holy Spirit in many ways at many times in our lives, both through the sacraments of the Church and via those personal visitations when the perception of his grace is palpable and undeniable.

The converts to whom the Apostles were speaking as recorded in the New Testament were adults. It is certainly true that an adult needs to repent of his sins and believe before he is is baptized. But baptism is not limited to adults. When infants are baptized, they also are washed free of sin (Original Sin) and their soul is filled with the Holy Spirit. They too become “adopted sons (and daughters) of God,” members of the Church – the People of God --and heirs to His promises. The same gift Adam and Eve had before the Fall is restored to them – Sanctifying Grace – that is, they are filled with the Divine Life of God.

The NT does not give baptismal instructions. It does not tell us how to baptize or at what age. As I said previously, the NT is not an instruction book in Christianity.

The instructions for baptism are in the Didache (Teaching), nickname for The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, a first-century document used by the Church for the instruction of adult pagan converts.

The Didache tells us how to baptize, but does not answer the question of age. For that, we must look to the practices of the first Christians to learn what the Apostles taught them.

Infants and children have been baptized by the Catholic Church since the Apostles walked this earth. Polycarp, a bishop of the Catholic Church, is an example. He was baptized – probably by St. John the Apostle – when he was an infant. At the very least, we know that infants were being baptized while the Apostles were still alive and teaching.

As Dianjo posted: QUOTE Acts 2:38 AND 39 state (by Peter), "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you AND your children and to all that are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to Him.END QUOTE

The promise of baptism is “to you and your children . . .” Even if children are too young to repent and believe, the Lord calls them to Him. Baptism replaced circumcision as the rite of initiation into the Family of God under the New Covenant. Circumcision was most assuredly given to children under the Old Covenant.

JMJ Jay

[quote=oudave]Hi
I feel that you are very wrong when you speak of the New Testament coming from the church and not God. 2 Tim 3:16 says that All Scripture is God-Breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness. The catholic church thinks that it has the authority over God’s word and your post is a fine example of that.
Dave.
[/quote]

Wrong again Dave! Katholikos is saying that the people who wrote the NT were inspired by God–they were Catholic–hence the NT came from the Catholic Church. Nice try though! :slight_smile:

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