When will it all end?


#21

[quote="Liberanosamalo, post:7, topic:183761"]

Having said that, I'm not sure how old the boy is. But he's at the age where the lure of daddy is becoming overpowering. The mom might have to let go for a while and let it play out. If he misses too many days of school, he may have to repeat the year. School districts don't care about child tug of war. And if Jr. is off his meds, and he has bad reactions, that will be documented eventually. The courts like stability in a child's life. And if the father looks irresponsible, it will come back to bite him. Even a cop can't get away with that forever.

[/quote]

Sorry, forgot to answer how old my nephew is. He is only 10 years old, but due to his mental health problems, his maturity level is at an 8 year old level.


#22

[quote="that_name, post:20, topic:183761"]
Thank you all, but, I have been involved with many ugly custody battles in my close circle.

Also, I could someone show me where I said to stay with a violent man???? I never said that. I said she chose to have this man in her life.

I'd REALLY suggst some books by Dr Laura.

[/quote]

My sister doesn't chose to have this man in her life. He is only in her life because they share children. They only talk when it deals about the kids. He will be a part of her life until the youngest is 18 years old and then, that is it. The kids will make their choices than of who they wish to live with and go visit then.


#23

Good idea and I will mention this to my sister to mention to her attorney.:thumbsup:


#24

That_Name, nobody CHOOSES a man like this. Obviously you've never met Dr. Jekyll and his friend Mr Hyde.

You only find out what you're really dealing with when the door is closed and there's no turning back.

Pray you never have to deal with such a nightmare scenario in your life, or you wouldn't be sharing such smug comments to people who are in horrible pain.

As for Dr. Laura... her books can be pretty useless. They might be good in a perfect world, but until she writes one on dealing with hardcore narcissists, she's not on my bookshelf.

For instance, many really nasty abusive men would LOVE the stuff in her "Care and Feeding of Husbands." They'd use a book like that and wave it under a wife's nose as proof of how they should be treated. Problem: You can never lavish enough attention on that kind. You can never do enough for them. You could be lying dead in your coffin and they'd be standing over you complaining that you didn't iron their shirt before you died.


#25

There is nothing in this thread to indicate that there is a new relationship on the horizon, so I question your intention in pointing this out. There is a tendency to dehumanize victims by focusing on blaming them for being victims. It also does nothing to help the son to focus on this.


#26

Actually, my childhood best friend married a man who makes the man the OP mentions look like Mr. Rogers.

She decided she nor her children would be kicked around by this man and his “girlfriend”. She asked her lawyer “how far can I move without violating the agreement”. Her lawyer told her.

She got out a map, determined where that was and started applying for jobs there. She got a job, packed up the kids and moved 4+ hours away. She knew NOONE, but, she was far enough away that he could not voilate the visitation agreement on a whim. They did pick up and drop off at a public place. She carried copies of the visitation agreement from the court with her, and knew her legal rights.

She went back to school, got her bachelors and then her masters, started her own very successful business and did not let that man run her life. He eventually built a “new family” who caters to his every whim and he even left the country.

All phone conversations for 5 years went through the lawyer. No email, she did not even let him know her email address.

It can be done, one simply has to be confident and determined not to play the games any more.

That is one example, I can give you many more.

As long as you participate in his game, he wins.


#27

All I can tell you is that every situation is different. My sister has talked to her lawyers and can not move. As far as emailing her ex, because they could not get alone on the phone, the judge ordered them to only email each other. That was bad too for it was the new wife answering the emails and she is a sick woman, but those emails now will show the forensic psychologist how sick this man is for they are signed by him. Even when my sister said she thinks that it is the wife answering the emails and not her ex for she knows how he speaks and talks and how badly he spells, he put down in the emails that it was him and specific details of their marriage. No doubt he was in the room telling his wife what to write and she wrote it, so it doesn’t matter, it has his name at the end of all those emails and let me tell you, she makes him seem like a saint. When he separated from her, she made his life a living hell. He got a taste of how vendictive she is and told this to my sister. That is when she filed an injunction against him. She even called her work, she works for the sheriffs and told them her husband left her in her hour of need for she was beaten by a bad man and had surgery. The captain of the sheriff called him up and said that he better be careful in his county now for anything can happen to him. That was a threat. That is his word against the captains and a dose of how of his own personality, but he was shocked his wife would allow this. We weren’t for what the kids told us. We knew she was mentally sick.

Now when my sister becomes a Physical Therapist and there are no jobs here and she applies far away and gets a job, she can move and has a good reason. But this man is good. He is calm and cool in court. He makes my sister out to be the liar and him the victim. Please, you don’t know the whole story and I can’t go into it all. You can do a search. I think I have it under, “the kids are going on visitation” or something like that.

You may have friends who have experienced situation like this, but each county is different. This county is terrible. All the lawyers know it. This state is terrible in protecting mothers and their children. They are more in favor of the dads. Yes, some women escape and it is because the dad’s allow it. This dad WILL NOT allow it. I know of a friend who took her kids and told her husband she was going to visit her mom in Georgia and never came back. Everyone told the dad he had the legal rights to file charges against the mom and he did, kidnapping charges, but he loved her and didn’t want to. He wanted to save his marriage, but she didn’t. She asked for a divorce two years later. It is a ugly divorce now. He is not narcissist, but just made too many mistakes that his wife has had it. He just now got visitation for he allowed his wife to be in charge. She was the narcissist here. She would not even allow their children to see their dad on the holidays. The reason is because he is addicted to pornography and used all their money. She was angry at him. Why involve the kids? So you see, each situation is different. Some women do run and get far away and some men allow it. This man will go after my sister whereever she is at.


#28

Nana, just because someone takes the kids doesn't make them a narcissist. Maybe that woman is trying to protect the kids. Especially if he's into porn.

That...

Please. The laws have rebounded from when we were kids. They used to favor mothers (often with good reason.) Now the fathers, (No matter how nasty, neglectful or violent) have "rights" that the courts cater to.

Not everyone has the opportunity to move 4.5 hours away. I wasn't allowed to move the kids out of their school district without my ex agreeing. Which of course he wouldn't. I've been here 12 years under legal restrictions. Many ex's find lawyers that find ways to make life horrible for us. They're paid royally to do so. And my kids spent years going over to his place 3, 4, 5, 6 times a week, for days at end according to the agreement I was forced to sign. (Sign here, or there will be a $40k trial that you might lose if the jury believes his lies and then you won't have your kids at all.) He was another one who looked all smooth in public.

Unless youv'e had someone stand in your driveway picking up the kids screaming at you, or calling your house (the one he used to live in that he tried to kick you out of) you have no idea how hard it is.

Don't we all wish we could have just taken the kids and never dealt with the man again! And no, I did not have the money to pay my lawyer $350 an hour to listen to that man rant. He would have been happy to run up my legal fees like that. In fact, he did. He stretched the legal stuff out for 3.5 years refusing to finish the divorce he started. Cost me tens of thousands!

It's just a legal way that abusive men continue to open old wounds and refuse to let someone heal. But if it helps you feel good to rub salt in the wounds, and tell us we're responsible for our own "victimization," good. My ex would like you for that. You're continuing his work. I'll offer my pain you cause up for the child he has lured away who I don't often see, because he lets the teen do whatever teen wants while I was the dependable parent with the rules.

In fact, he even went around town and told everyone I was the crazy one. So I had to live among people and go into the school with people being told lies about ME.

Unless you've ever personally been the victim of such targeted and deliberate evil please don't lecture. Second-hand divorce stories from the point of view of children at the time don't begin to deal with the whole picture. Most of us do the best we can and those men FORCE us to have to deal with them whether we want to or not. And they use our own children against us, buying their affection, making promises, lavishing them with time and attention they never showed when the family was together. As we struggle to pay off mounting legal bills and cope with 66 percent less income, they're out dating and bringing strangers into our childrens' lives. Again, unless you've personally lived it, don't announce that those of us involved in this "chose" our own personal hell.

It kind of negates the validity of anything else you'd say.


#29

This is a public forum, I have not violated any rules.

The OP asked for opinions, I gave mine based on my life experience - and I am sorry if holding the hand and heart of a woman who is closer to you than your sister is not "good enough" experience for you.

Hope you never go see a doctor for advice unless he has suffered the disease himself.


#30

I would suggest that holding her hand and heart as she becomes the child of divorce is about as close to going through divorce as holding the hand of a woman having a baby is to actually suffering childbirth yourself. And you’d have as much validity standing by the delivery table as a spectator telling someone how they should feel or act.

No, you haven’t violated any rules. But I would suggest that you may not be aware that many women dealing with such men have already spent many years being blamed for everything from their spouse’s drinking to the sink being backed up, to the fact the kids’ shoes are untied. Being told something is your fault has a very different feel to such a person. It triggers a reaction you have no idea about. And you come here and do the same thing. I’m telling you from the point of view of someone who has been there, you are not offering help, but you ARE adding to their pain.

If you are trying to be charitable, stop with the hit and run comments. Stop blaming the people for what they’re going through. The OP came here for advice in a diabolical situation. You have offered no concrete help or understanding.

No, I would not pick a doctor based on whether he has suffered a disease himself. But I sure would drop him if he had such a limited understanding of it that he advised me to do things that added to my discomfort or suffering or made the condition worse.


#31

That_Name, some of us are letting you know that the advice you are offering is not only impractical but also hurtful. Wouldn’t you want to know if the things that you were saying were hurtful so that you don’t continue?


#32

[quote="Liberanosamalo, post:30, topic:183761"]
I would suggest that holding her hand and heart as she becomes the child of divorce is about as close to going through divorce as holding the hand of a woman having a baby is to actually suffering childbirth yourself. And you'd have as much validity standing by the delivery table as a spectator telling someone how they should feel or act.

No, you haven't violated any rules. But I would suggest that you may not be aware that many women dealing with such men have already spent many years being blamed for everything from their spouse's drinking to the sink being backed up, to the fact the kids' shoes are untied. Being told something is your fault has a very different feel to such a person. It triggers a reaction you have no idea about. And you come here and do the same thing. I'm telling you from the point of view of someone who has been there, you are not offering help, but you ARE adding to their pain.

If you are trying to be charitable, stop with the hit and run comments. Stop blaming the people for what they're going through. The OP came here for advice in a diabolical situation. You have offered no concrete help or understanding.

No, I would not pick a doctor based on whether he has suffered a disease himself. But I sure would drop him if he had such a limited understanding of it that he advised me to do things that added to my discomfort or suffering or made the condition worse.

[/quote]

My CHILDHOOD friend, a friend I have had since we were 10 years old, when she was an adult, just a few years ago, married an abusive horrid person. This is the only one of my close circle who has gone through a ghastly divorce.

I have NEVER mentioned a child of divorce.

Please, do not read my posts if they so offend you.

I have not blamed anyone, I have said that she shoud OWN the fact that she picked this man and decided to have kids with him.


#33

[quote="dulcissima, post:31, topic:183761"]
That_Name, some of us are letting you know that the advice you are offering is not only impractical but also hurtful. Wouldn't you want to know if the things that you were saying were hurtful so that you don't continue?

[/quote]

For many people, admitting that they made a mistake is the first step in healing. You do not feel that way. That is your choice.

I will always advise women to own their choices, not to be owned by the circumstances!


#34

We already know we made a mistake. Having someone tell us it's all our fault does NOT help us heal.

I hope you're not so "kind" in your "help" to your best friend.

And we don't need to be told on a message board that we "own" the mistake and now are stuck. We know the law has tied us to a man (or woman) who wants to harm us.

Easy to say you're not owned by the circumstances when you're a spectator.

I mistook your original wording that your friend grew up in a house and her family was divorced.

Come back in a few years and let us know how disentangled she's managed to get from him. Because abusive men... when they lose control at work or in their ensuing love relationships, invariably go back and mess with their ex wives and the kids in an attempt to control somebody somewhere.

And the law helps them. Take it from someone who got served with a lawsuit on her step a few months ago from someone who divorced her 11 years ago.

And yeah, I chose to have children with him. Back when I still thought he was nice.

If your friend had known her spouse was so abusive, would she have married him? Do you tell her "You chose him. You live with the consequences."

Problem is, if you have children with them, they use the kids to hurt you. Your innate need to protect your children as a mother becomes the tool they use to torture you. And they know just how far to go before they have crossed a legal line.

In the OP's letter, the man is depriving a son of medicine and taking him out of an academic environment that helps him. The mother, who actually cares about his long-term welfare, is upset. And all you offer her is basically,"You chose to breed with him. Quit being a victim." No, that doesn't help.


#35

And I will say:

Unless YOU are the one waking up with nightmares in the middle of the night

Unless YOU are the one with a child in your lap sobbing from grief over separation from a sibling or parent

Unless YOU are the one deprived of health care because he took the insurance in the divorce

Unless YOU are the one trying to find money for the lawyer so you can keep your own kids he wasn't even interested in till a few months ago

Unless YOU are the one hearing your children report horrible behavior, neglect, mistreatment or stress,

Unless YOU are the one having to change sheets on a bed for a child who has reverted to bedwetting

Unless YOU are the one trying to fit 5 hours of homework into 2 hours because their father didn't oversee any during his weekend

Unless YOU are the one trying to make up for the other party's bad parenting and doing everything on your own,

then YOU are a spectator. I don't care how good a friendship you have.

The posters don't need harshness and blame. They've had two lifetimes' full of that already.

And it's hard to avoid seeing your posts when I'm trying to scroll past them to see what others say.


#36

Libera, I am so sorry if I have offended you and it sounds like I did. I don’t understand what I said that was wrong, I really don’t and maybe you can clarify it for me for I don’t want to offend you. You say that I am rubbing salt in the wounds. What do you mean? I re-read my entry about my friend who took her kids and did may a typo. When she took her kids, her husband did not file kidnapping charges because he loved her and wanted to stay married. Despite his porn addiction, he was and is a devote Catholic. He was working on getting help for his addiction. He went to daily Mass and weekly confessions. He had a spiritual advisor, who was a priest, helping him with this addiction. He even went to a secular support group for this addiction. He was trying to quit. He told me that he had not done porn in months, but was honest enough to say he still wanted to do porn. He knew he had a problem. His wife, by the way, has been diagnosed with Bipolar Personality disorder but refuses to take her medication. She took it while she was with her husband but stopped it and that is when she started acting irrational. I know she is protecting her kids from pornography, but he never did it in front of the kids. The kids were never in danger. I am not saying what he did is right, in fact he is wrong and he is paying a high price now, a divided family, for his sin of addiction, but this woman has hit him and yelled at him in the face and just gone off on him. I was a witness to one of the episodes before she moved away, so I know he is not lying. He admits to yelling back, but says he never has laid a hand on her. She confirmed that to me too. But when she moved away, she got worse. She would not allow her husband anywhere near the kids. He could not even be in the same church to hear his children in the choir. She would not allow it. He obeyed her only because she threatened divorce all the time and he didn’t want that. So he pleased her for two years. He finally moved from here to there and this angered her more and she wanted the divorce.

I felt I had to explain their marriage and story a little more to see if that would clarify what I meant to say. I understand what you went through. I read your last entry and oh boy, that is what my sister went and is going through. Most of her legal fees are being paid by my parents. My dad can’t stand the way this man treats his daughter that he said he would pay more money to take him back to court. He is the one and I am going to pay half, who is paying for the psychological evaluation. My sister can’t. Her ex has not paid child support for years. He would pay whatever he wanted. You know why he is doing this now, because he is finally getting his wages garnished by the state. This new attorney did that for my sister. He is mad for it is out of his control now and he can’t just pay my sister $50.00 but now has to pay the whole $920.00 a month. He is going to be surprised when he has to go back to court for being in contempt for not paying medical bills for years that surpass $20,000.00 which is what he owes in back child support and in contempt for not paying $50.00 extra a week that the judge ordered for the old medical bills. He is years behind on that one. Now he is in contempt for visitation. He is in trouble.

I did not mean to offend you. Sorry, please forgive me but I think it was a big misunderstanding. I am for women who have no one to protect them for I have seen no one go to bat for my sister and her kids. The schools didn’t want to get involve. The counselors were to afraid of being sued by the dad and some backed off. Child services were a joke. So yes, I understand and that is why I say I am sorry if I offended you. Please, tell me what I said that was wrong. I am sure I didn’t mean to.


#37

My sister received this email from her ex. I think he is trying to cover his butt on the medication issue.

*"I’m sending you this e-mail to attempt to set up a time that we can meet and talk in a public place and in a civil manor. I only want what’s best for our son. If you really care for him you will let him try this and see if this works for him. He is sooo happy here and just wants to live a normal life. He is in good health and good spirits.

Our daughter, keeps calling my phone, his, and her step-sister’s Phone and she is upsetting him with and he does not want to talk about this now.

Please see past your anger and see things through his eyes. This is not about me or you it’s about what’s best for the child. If he is happy, he is not angry and healthy then why not let him do this?

Luis does not want to shut you out he wants to spend more time with me and as he told me he needs a break for some time.

Let’s just let Luis be happy!!!

Let me know if you want to meet just you and me no one else in a public place.

And you can give me his medication at the same time."*

I took out the names and replaced them with son, and daughter. My sister has not even spoken with him for him to say she is angry or to “look past her anger.” They intend on using this email in court. Now my sister has to decide if she should take the medications to her son. If she doesn’t, it may look like she doesn’t care for his well being. She is going to ask her attorney, but if she says yes, I would email my ex and tell him he can come and pick up the meds at my house. That is what I would do. That is his responsiblity, he took the kid.


#38

See my PM, Nana.

My xh could have written that email, which becomes all about "my anger" and accusations that I am "upsetting the kids" blah blah blah. But he's doing that with the daughter.

Sounds like since he can't control her, she's out of his life. At least for now.

I hope she's in counseling to see how none of this is about her worthiness as a person. I would suggest she stop calling her brother. I doubt he's really as happy as he claims.

Eventually the novelty will wear off. And if the new wife/girlfriend is so nasty, she'll eventually make him feel unwelcome and your sister will get the "come get me" phone call.


#39

Praying for the safe return of your child.

Hail Mary,
full of grace,
the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
Jesus.
Holy Mary,
Mother of God,
pray for us sinners now,
and at the hour of our death.
Amen.


#40

As hard as it might be, I would not bite and meet with him face to face. It isn't about solving the child's issue, it's about getting his chance to inflict more pain on her, the pain he feels she deserves. I would not answer it immediately. Responses need to be deliberate and measured. I would just say that the medication was prescribed by a doctor (and likely the need for the medication was noted by others like counselors, teachers, pediatricians, etc.) She might even want to consult the counselor at his school, because they have resources that she might not have, and at the very least can let her know the right response. She needs to not meet him, not call him, and be brief, unemotional and fact-based in her written response.


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