Where can I ask the question for proof of god


#1

Where can I find the proof that the Catholic God exists?


#2

April-

St. Thomas Aquinas’ Summa has some thought provoking proofs.

I think you can find it online…we have them (there are more than 1 volume) at the local library.

Other than that…like scientific proof…nope. God is beyond the realm of science.


#3

[quote="Armor_of_Light, post:2, topic:316742"]
April-

Other than that...like scientific proof...nope. God is beyond the realm of science.

[/quote]

Hi Thanks for replying last time I asked this question it was deleted.

I hear what you say, but I would like to find some proof. For you you to say that God is beyond the realms of science, confuses me.

A. How can it be beyond science - there is nothing that cannot be studied.

B. For you to know it is beyond science - what are you basing that on.

C. Wouldn't it be a whole lot easier for the world, if we could find the definitive answer or would religions fail, as they need a lack of proof to justify their existence and requirement for faith


#4

Well now you are getting into banned territory!

I wish it wasn't banned...and I suppose we could continue for a while. These topics get out of hand pretty quickly! I won't get nasty, but others might I guess.

I had a dream about a chicken dinner. I 'know' it, but can't 'prove' it.
You could scientifically study me and 'prove' I was dreaming, but no way can you 'know' what I dreamed of. Look at it like that.. Not everything is proveable.

Yes I agree it'd be much easier for us God to be proveable. Since God is eternal and outside of time, it wouldn't have done much good for him to be proveable for people in 635 A.D. anyway. Same unchanging God....changing, evolving people.

I have more thoughts..


#5

Oh, I almost forgot…

Science studies the material world. God is not the world (like in the movie Avatar).


#6

[quote="aprilfloyd, post:3, topic:316742"]

A. How can it be beyond science - there is nothing that cannot be studied.

B. For you to know it is beyond science - what are you basing that on.

[/quote]

Incorrect. Science is the study of the material reality. It is, at its core, the observation of the physical properties of things which exhibit those properties. God, by his nature as creator, must exist outside of the physical reality, otherwise he would be bound by the laws of time and cause and affect as we are, and would therefore have been incapable of creating reality. The fact that we exist is the simplest and most complicated proof of God, all at once. Since God must exist outside of the physical realm (i.e. he does not display any of the trait / properties that science is capable of measuring) then he is beyond science's capacity to understand.

C. Wouldn't it be a whole lot easier for the world, if we could find the definitive answer or would religions fail, as they need a lack of proof to justify their existence and requirement for faith

It is not a matter of requiring a lack of proof; it is that proof would negate faith. We are called to have faith in God, not to 'know' as science would like us to 'know' things. We Know through an understanding which far exceeds science. Religion would not fail; if we were capable of proving God then we would also be capable of proving which of the world's religions is correct (Catholicism, btw :p). The problem with this though is that as soon as this is proven, Faith loses its meaning. It will devolve into a mechanical "to-do" list that everyone would follow to ensure they achieve eternity with God. As it is now, we have faith, and we Know with a sense far greater than the five which science deals with; and we strive to do good for the sake of good and love of God, rather than for the guarantee of eternal happiness.

It's kind of hard to explain really... I hope I haven't made it too convoluted.

Incidentally, I hold that science is 100% incapable of proving or disproving God; I believe in God because I Know he exists, and I try (fail frequently, but still try) to live a good life in thanks for the wondrous gifts he has given me.


#7

Prove He doesn’t.


#8

[quote="aprilfloyd, post:1, topic:316742"]
Where can I find the proof that the Catholic God exists?

[/quote]

You know...if you try to pray sincerely, if you kneel before Him, knowing that He is looking at you and listening to you...and if humbly you implore that He bless you with the gift of faith...it would probably have much better results than if you try with some degree of pride and through an imperfect fallible understanding to find the proof that He exists.

For me, unworthily blessed with that gift at some point, I can tell He exists even from the most insignificant thing...a cloud, for instance. For Dr. Francis Collins, noted for his discoveries of disease genes and his leadership of the Human Genome Project, as well as for converting from Atheism to Christianity, scientific discoveries are an opportunity to worship God. No matter how humble or extraordinary a mind may be, humbleness before the living God suffices to receive the free gift of faith.


#9

At a church that offers adoration. About an hour a week should be good for a start.


#10

A proof for God is NOT beyond science. Simply look around you at the world.

If you're walking along a beach and find an ornate pocketwatch that someone dropped, would you be silly enough to think, "Gee, this watch made itself." Of course not -- you would know that it came from a higher-order being.

Same with everything you see around you. Notable "scientists" have laughably claimed that the universe spontaneously came from itself, but this is not only unscientific, it's illogical.


#11

[quote="surritter, post:10, topic:316742"]
A proof for God is NOT beyond science. Simply look around you at the world.

If you're walking along a beach and find an ornate pocketwatch that someone dropped, would you be silly enough to think, "Gee, this watch made itself." Of course not -- you would know that it came from a higher-order being.

Same with everything you see around you. Notable "scientists" have laughably claimed that the universe spontaneously came from itself, but this is not only unscientific, it's illogical.

[/quote]

This isn't a proof though, at least not a scientific one. It is a philosophical proof, to be sure; but a scientific proof demands physical evidence (measurements, observations, etc.). It is illogical, and unscientific to say that the universe came from nothing; but it is also unscientific (at least so far as the atheists are concerned) to say that this order proves God.

Don't get me wrong, I believe it does prove good, just not scientifically.


#12

[quote="surritter, post:10, topic:316742"]
A proof for God is NOT beyond science. Simply look around you at the world.

If you're walking along a beach and find an ornate pocketwatch that someone dropped, would you be silly enough to think, "Gee, this watch made itself." Of course not -- you would know that it came from a higher-order being.

Same with everything you see around you. Notable "scientists" have laughably claimed that the universe spontaneously came from itself, but this is not only unscientific, it's illogical.

[/quote]

Not exactly..

The watch was made by not a 'higher order being'...just a person with different skills than our beach bum.

And the world POINTS TOWARDS God in the way a building points towards an architect, but, in itself does not prove God.


#13

I love my children and my husband. I can't prove I do, but our family believes I do love them. They have faith in me. I love God, I have faith in him. I have proof through my own spiritual experience that my faith in God is just. My relationships don't exisit because I have proven through the scientific method they do but from the bonds I have with my loved ones which can not be measured. I also have had experiences in which I know loved ones who have passed on are with God and still with me in spirit. Science continues to discover or sometimes uncover that which was always there more and more. Maybe one day objective proof can be shared for all the world to know the mysteries of life, but for now, my spirit has all the proof I need. maybe through meditations and spiritual reflection you can find a road weaving through your own spiritual journey. That is if you really want to travel that road. Perhaps something will happen in your life which will open your heart to believe. The good thing is God is always there should you happen to call on him.


#14

[quote="Armor_of_Light, post:12, topic:316742"]
Not exactly..

The watch was made by not a 'higher order being'...just a person with different skills than our beach bum.

[/quote]

You're reading too much into it. The point was that the watch didn't get there by itself. Ergo, the universe -- which is of much greater complexity than the watch -- didn't get there by itself.


#15

Not sure why this would be banned. I even reread the forum rules. Are proof of God discussions not allowed?


#16

@surritter i get you. You see a watch on the beach. Its insane to think that all the tiny little pieces in it came together in the exact way, all the pieces the exact size for it work, came together all by themselves. It was created. The same is of the world/universe/humans. Well, everything!

Having said that, i believe that nobody can prove that God exists. Thats the point in faith as a few posters have already said.


#17

[quote="surritter, post:14, topic:316742"]
You're reading too much into it. The point was that the watch didn't get there by itself. Ergo, the universe -- which is of much greater complexity than the watch -- didn't get there by itself.

[/quote]

The weakness of that argument is that it makes no claims as to who the designer is. It leads to silliness like the spaghetti monster. We see it because we have faith but a non-believer won't. I think Aquinas has the best proofs, but they are a bit difficult to truely understand and, in my opinion, very difficult to retain any understanding. There are parts that still leave me a bit baffled.


#18

[quote="mum_of_three, post:16, topic:316742"]
Having said that, i believe that nobody can prove that God exists. Thats the point in faith as a few posters have already said.

[/quote]

There are a few logical arguments in favor of God's existence out there. God's existence - this is official Catholic teaching - can be known by reason alone.


#19

April

Depends on what kind of proof you are looking for. If you are looking for "smoking pistol" proof, forget it. If you are looking for reasonable indications that God truly exists, and that the reasonable indications are more reasonable than any argument that God does not exist, you might try Peter Kreeft's Handbook of Christian Apologetics. The second chapter on God contains twenty proofs for the existence of God. The rest of the book deals with many other issues that atheists find difficult to understand about Catholic theology.

Good luck.


#20

Aquinas said the existence of God can be demonstrated from his effects:

newadvent.org/summa/1002.htm#article2

He then proceded to demonstrate the existence of God from his effects.

newadvent.org/summa/1002.htm#article3

If you want a prove that God exists, you have to read Aquinas.

If you're not willing to do that you will never get your question answered.


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