If you draw a circle and label it time we would be within time. God is outside of time and is therefore eternal and unchanging. Do angels also stand outside of time being eternal and unchanging?
The angels stand in a separately-created circle called “aeviternity,” which is different from both time and eternity. Thomas Aquinas explains: newadvent.org/summa/1010.htm#article5
Two big differences between aeviternity and eternity are: (1) Aeviternity had a beginning, unlike eternity. (2) Things can enter aeviternity which were not there before, but they cannot enter eternity.
Also, things that enter aeviternity become unchanging in being from that point forward, or until they exit aeviternity. But even though their being cannot change, they can still make choices and gain knowledge. Aquinas puts it this way: “[Angels] have an unchangeable being as regards their nature with changeableness as regards choice; moreover they have changeableness of intelligence, of affections and of places in their own degree.” The same thing applies to souls that exit time at death and enter aeviternity, where they reside until (I think) the general Resurrection.
Also, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?:dancing:
Angels don’t stand,
Luke 1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God;
It appears they can bilocate as well.
Seems to me that they would be in either place, maybe even at the same time.
As far as “God is outside of time”.
If you believe that Jesus is God-Incarnate than Jesus being created and uncreated was very much “inside of time”, that is what the “Incarnation” means.
Jesus said that He must go so that the Holy Spirit would come, don’t you believe Jesus meant this?
I do not know why Jesus said this but when He said it, He did mean that the Holy Spirit would very much be within time.
Do you think that Paul (Saul) had to go outside of time to have his encounter with Jesus?
Do you really think that God can not “visit” creation?
You may or may not think this but if you do, why do you think that God and/or God’s Angels could not be in time and if either was to go into time that it would change them?
Well, I understand that God in the form of Christ could enter into the world and be fundamentally unchanged as God. But our parish priest went through the whole time exercise about being in time and outside and changeability inside of time, so I thought it was from a decent source.
My follow up question is actually why and how did Lucifer change?
If you mean what was the circumstance of satan’s fall I think the general consensus was his pride caused him to sin.
Be that as it may, Father Fox of Fatima & EWTN notoriety in his taped series “Lessons of the Catholic Faith” teaches it was when God revealed to the Angelic world His plan to take on a human form as the human redeemer and raise up St. Mary to be Queen of the Angels it was just too much for him and he and his followers rebelled against God.
Luke 2:35 Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also, that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.
Does this “Father Fox” say whether this happened before or after the fall of man?
If “before the fall of man” was it before or after the creation of man?
I don’t know what Father Fox says, but it is my understanding that the fall of Lucifer took place in the first moments of the creation of the heavens and the earth from nothing. Therefore, it seems to follow that it happened before the creation of man and the fall of man.
But, if I understand angelology correctly, events in aeviternity do not exactly correspond to our world’s timeline. I think Scripture records the fall of the angels at several different points in our timeline, and perhaps one reason for that is, our world’s time is not present in aeviternity.
I can’t say, but it would reason that satan already fell by the time he got around to tempting Eve in the Garden and knowing the results.
Very interesting perspective, I had never heard that before.
What my students and I weren’t able to square was the priest’s view of time and where people versus God stood and what that meant to our changeability or unchangeability based on where we exist. That Christ could enter time and be unchangeable is related to the mystery of Christ’s dual human and divine nature. Though I think others noting that God exists everywhere, in time and out of time, is actually relevant here and that the dichotomy between in time and out of time maybe doesn’t actually work that well? But it sounds like we have two options from various posts for Lucifer. The place where angels exist isn’t so simple as “in time” or “out of time” and wherever they exist they are possibly changeable due to their experiences and Lucifer could become rebellious. Or, second, Lucifer was simply created as a creature prone to jealousy and that changeability doesn’t enter into the equation.
Jude 1: 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
There is a lot about the Angels we don’t understand like the real meaning of the above.
Perhaps the ontology that Aquinas facilitates in his writings as a Doctor of the Church, a title that is not meant to be taken lightly, should be clarified in the following manner. God’s Will is predominate, He is Eternal Creator of whom angels had always a vision until the Fall, with many legions of Mary’s Angels still constantly seeing the Triune Godhead. Mary, The Blessed Virgin, Our Mother, is the Queen of Angels. She will crush Satan’s head through the victory of Our Lord, Jesus Christ.
So, even we know the game plan. The game plan is established by God’s Will and we human persons remain in the fallen world with our free will to follow God’s plan or try out our own design. I personally recommend God’s plan, although I would not vote down my neighbor if he should to do otherwise. That’s clever political humor, just to clarify.
God’s Will is the vessel in which angels confer, for which God’s Heavenly Angels interact with the fallen world. Aquinas builds this representation with reasoned logics and by use of the natural law available to every person. Virtue is the element in which angels exist. So, time is not the question to consider, but the merit of virtue, instead.
Only G-d knows for sure.
Throne of God
Dang, and i thought they were climbing Jacob’s ladder.