afew years ago i did ask my mum if they were children in purgatory? she said that the unborn are sent to purgatory. is it true? i thought they were pure and its not their fault. the mothers are to blame. for getting rid of them.
No, they are not pure (they still retain the stain of original sin), but they are not to blame either.
The truth is, we do not know.
We know for certain that the Grace recieved at Baptism is necessary for a soul to enter Heaven.
We know that this Grace is, without a doubt, recieved at Baptism.
We also know that God MAY grant this Grace to others. But God has not chosen to grant us knowledge of when and how this Grace is granted outside of the Sacrament of Baptism.
We cannot deny the need for Baptism and grant certitude to the granting of such Grace to the unborn (as that would effectively elevate abortion to the sacramental equivelent of Baptism)
But we cannot deny that God may Grant such Grace.
St. Thomas Aquinas postulated that those who die in such a state, obtain complete natural happiness, but not the spiritual happiness of the Beatific Vision of Heaven.
So, the official answer is, we do not know. We may HOPE for, but not maintain certitude, in any particular outcome.
The official position is “We don’t know” BUT There is every reason to trust and hope in God’s mercy that they are allowed quickly or immediately into Heaven. I think particularly with aborted children, because of the terrible pain they’ve gone through. There would be no reason to cause them the additional pain of purification in Purgatory.
I think I remember hearing Mother Angelica say something about this as follows:
“Officially we don’t know, but I like to think they are all with Our Lady and she is teaching them to pray for their Mothers.” (Paraphrased in regards to Unborn victims of Abortion).
I like to think this also. If God can save Our Mother from Original Sin before her birth and His Mercy is infinite then I like to think he extends this mercy to the unborn.
– Cadian :knight1:
Totally with this :). We can’t say with dogmatic certainty that these poor kids are in heaven… but we’re pretty sure we can know hey are with God.
You hit on the one thing that IS certain here :). Purgatory is to remove attachemen to sin and to attone for the temporal effects of personal sin.
The unborn have neither.
IF they are granted the necessary Graces to enter Heaven (and if must remain an ‘IF’), they would do so without Purgation.
Every temporal creature that is living has a soul ( or else it would not, by definition, be alive)
So the child is ensouled as soon as it has a body (matter) that is distinct from the parents (thus at conception)
That said, God ensouls whom He pleases. With your argument, God would have no reason for ensouling someone that He knows will die in mortal sin. God does know all the choices we will make, but still allows us to make them,
That is called Free Will and it is the only way that one can Love, by freely choosing (as an act of the Will) to Love.
There can be no Love where there is not a Free Will to choose.
So God grants us Free Will and allows the choices that the Free Will makes.
We are bound by the sacraments but God is not. For that reason we can’t say where they go, but we can only trust these souls to His mercy.
Jesus Himself said “Bring the little children to Me”. That gives me a clue to what happens to the unborn.
My dear friend
All who never reach the ae of reason such as the unborn go straight to heaven in my opinion.
God bless you:thumbsup:
This is what I thought also. Do you know where I could get some information on this thought? I could use it the next time I talk to a friend who stopped coming to the church I attend for the reason that they believed thier child would not go strait to heaven unless the child was baptised first.
Thank you in advance.
My dear friend
I can offer no source. In the early church there was the problem that some Romans inspired by the example of the first christians would jump into the arena and die with them. In sorting out what happened to them the church decided they had a baptism of desire, or you could say a baptism of blood in there case. So you can be baptised directly by God in certain cases. I believe these are baptised by God Himself if necessary. I heard a while ago Rome was looking at the question of what happens too.
God bless you:thumbsup:
I truly believe they are baptized by their own blood due to their innocence in death.
The Catechism states
The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having recieved Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament. (1258) Taken from Catholicism from dummies page 99.
This brings us to desire for Baptism, since some will no doubt argue the babies in question of this thread did not suffer for the sake of the faith.But these babies have innocent souls, and it’s reasonable to fathom that innocent souls would of course desire baptism if given the chance.
Back to the Catechism (as taken from page 101 of Catholicism for dummies)
Since Christ died for all…we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility…Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity (1260).
Catechism of the Catholic Church
“As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to themercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism” (Catechism, 1261).
Evangelium Vitae, paragraph 99,**
The Father of mercies is ready to give you [the mother] his forgiveness and his peace in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. To the same Father and his mercy you can with sure hope entrust your child.
The Hope of Salvation for Infants who Die Without Being Baptized
International Theological Commission
101. “As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: ‘Let the children come to me, do not hinder them’ (Mk 10:14; cf.1Tim 2:4), allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism.
102….Our conclusion is that the many factors that we have considered above give serious theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptised infants who die will be saved and enjoy the Beatific Vision. We emphasise that these are reasons for prayerful hope, rather than grounds for sure knowledge. There is much that simply has not been revealed to us (cf. Jn 16:12). **We live by faith and hope in the God of mercy **and love who has been revealed to us in Christ, and the Spirit moves us to pray in constant thankfulness and joy (cf. 1 Thess 5:18).
My thoughts are a little of Brendan, Cadian and Redroses.
I firmly believe that Limbo is on the fringes of Purgatory and is possibly the “lightest” of purgative states to the extent of actually enjoying “natural happiness” and in the presence of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
I also surmise that God all merciful, true to His divine Justice, is not going to allow us to equate abortion to baptism by means of assumed innocence. Therefore, we do not know - and that’s as it should be because I’m not about to speculate or draw conclusions on God’s Mercy or His Justice.
I don’t know and it’s ok. He knows and is not oblivious to the situation.
Some time ago there was a person with a private revelation about this. It appears that God reveals to the unborn soul the fact that He exists and loves the person. God asks if the soul accepts this. If so, there is a baptism of desire.
If this is the case, it would be good to believe it. God had the thief on the cross join Him in paradise, even though the thief had not been baptized.
God makes the decisions. He is love, justice and mercy.
We can trust that He loves all those He creates, and will do what is best for them.
I went to the Holy See web site and found the “Hope for Salvation for Infants who Die Without Being Baptized” By the International Theological Commission. That yinekka mentioned in an earlier post. It is a long read but well worth it as it goes through the Church’s standing on this issue throughout history.
I have attached the link for all to read.
I am quoting my own thread to emphasize:
Holy Mother Church has not made any definitive promulgation concerning the un-baptised souls of aborted babies in Limbo.
And rightfully so! The last thing pro-abortionists need is a “license of exemption” by reason of “innocence” to continue the gratuitous slaughter of the unborn at the rate of 50,000,000/year.
I hope and pray that the notion of the souls in Limbo remains in the realm of personal revelation.
Is it possible that these little souls could possibly receive Baptism by Blood - their blood? Martyrdom?