Where does word of God teach the Catholic Church is infallible?


#1

First, in Sacred Tradition. But I know that you limit the Word of God to Scripture. So, let’s go there. But first…

…you have to realize that the Catholic Church is the Church which is described in Scripture. No Protestant Church existed for another 1500 years.

First, Jesus Christ appointed a Pastor as head of the entire Church:
John 21:17
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

I see only a few Churches with such a Pastor. Further, Jesus Christ said that the Pastor over His Church would be infallible:

Matthew 16:17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

The list of Churches accept this teaching gets smaller. Certainly, all Protestant denominations can now be eliminated.

Jesus Christ not only said that the Pastor was infallible but Scripture describes the Church as infallible:
Ephesians 3:10
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

The list remains the same, but now I can certainly eliminate all Protestant denominations.

Back to Matt 16:18, Scripture says that Jesus Christ established one Church. History shows that all the Churches sprang from the Church which is frequently described as the Mother Church. The Catholic Church.

So, even using just a few verses we can eliminate the Protestants. None of their denominations even come close to being in Scripture. But we can continue to find Catholic indicators throughout the Bible:

The Church which is infallible (1 Tim 3:15; Eph 3:10).
The Church which is united (Eph 4:5).
The doctrines of the Catholic Church which are distinctive from other churches:
Purgatory (1 Cor 3:15).
Eucharist (1 Cor 11:23-27).
Communion of Saints (Rom 12:12-20).
The Mass and the necessity to attend (Heb 10:25-31).
The Sacrament of Confession (Heb 13:17).
The Sacrament of Holy Orders (1 Tim 4:14).
The Sacrament of Baptism (Titus 3:5).
Justification and salvation by faith and works (Rom 2:1-13).

Finally, I will say, that if your church is not infallible, it isn’t led by Jesus Christ. Because Jesus Christ is infallible.


#2

When you study the history with an open heart it is amazing that Jesus started such a movement with his very life. And if you believe that Jesus is God, as the second person in the TRINITY… it is AWESOME!


#3

My goodness we cannot agree even on the most basic things. Many will agree the Catholic church is not the Church AT ALL! described in scripture. When the pope came to San Antonio and I saw how the people treated him like a royal king, I realized just how far away from the apostolic spirit the Roman Catholic Church is.

The Apostolic Church which began in Jerusalem, long before Christianity became global set down her roots. These roots today can barely be discerned.

Secondly, the term Protestant Church is a concept describing internal disagreement in the Roman Church. You may see us as protestants. We see you as protestants too. But neither are protestant from God’s perspective. He has only one body whether we agree or not.

  1. Peter was pastor over his flock. Actually Peter was called to be an apostle, not pastor, however, the characteristics of a pastor are found in the office of apostle. There’s nothing in the John 21 passage about Rome, or about Peter being a universal pastor. Apostle’s also feed sheep, Paul did it, John did it. James did it,

  2. Peter given some kind of special privilege in Matthew 16 has been refuted. Thou Art petros=masculine g., upon this Petra=feminine g. I will build my Church. Christ built His Church upon the revelation that He was the Christ the very declaration Peter just uttered.

The binding and loosening principle was given not just to Peter but to all the disciples and I would argue given to all of the Church. Mt. 18:18

Jesus Christ nowhere said that Peter was infallible. Please quote the exact verse? Please quote the exact verse where the Church is infallible? Eph. 3:10 doesn’t talk about infallibility.

The eastern Churches disagreed with Rome’s power grab from the beginning. Of course we’re talking at least the 2nd. Century by this time.

You said…
The Church which is infallible (1 Tim 3:15; Eph 3:10). Neither of these verses say that.
The Church which is united (Eph 4:5). Neither of these verses say it was united.
The doctrines of the Catholic Church which are distinctive from other churches:
Purgatory (1 Cor 3:15). This verse says nothing about the concept of purgatory
Eucharist (1 Cor 11:23-27). The Lords supper is acknowledged
Communion of Saints (Rom 12:12-20). Agreed
The Mass and the necessity to attend (Heb 10:25-31). None of these verses talk about the Mass
The Sacrament of Confession (Heb 13:17). There is no mention of the concept of confession
The Sacrament of Holy Orders (1 Tim 4:14). The Gift of the Holy Spirit
The sacrament of Baptism (Titus 3:5) No mention of water baptism anywhere.
Justification and Salvation by faith and works (Rom. 2:1-13) Paul expounds on the impossibility to keep the Law for Salvation, but nothing here about what does save.


#4

[quote=“tgGodsway, post:3, topic:452262, full:true”]
My goodness we cannot agree even on the most basic things.

True.

Many will agree the Catholic church is not the Church AT ALL! described in scripture.

They are wrong.

When the pope came to San Antonio and I saw how the people treated him like a royal king, I realized just how far away from the apostolic spirit the Roman Catholic Church is.

The Catholic Church is the Apostolic Church.

The Apostolic Church which began in Jerusalem, long before Christianity became global set down her roots. These roots today can barely be discerned.

That’s your lack of faith speaking. We not only see the roots, but the tree:

Matthew 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: 32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

Secondly, the term Protestant Church is a concept describing internal disagreement in the Roman Church. You may see us as protestants. We see you as protestants too. But neither are protestant from God’s perspective. He has only one body whether we agree or not.

Wrong. The Catholic Church was given the authority to bind and loose. That means the authority to excommunicate.

This is how it sounds in Scripture:
Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Protestants were loosed from the body of Christ when the Council of Trent excommunicated all those who believed Luther’s heresies.

Just one example, of many.

Canon 9.
If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone,[114] meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/trent6.htm

cont’d


#5

cont’d with tpGodsway

  1. Peter was pastor over his flock. Actually Peter was called to be an apostle, not pastor, however, the characteristics of a pastor are found in the office of apostle. There’s nothing in the John 21 passage about Rome, or about Peter being a universal pastor. Apostle’s also feed sheep, Paul did it, John did it. James did it,

All the Apostles were present, but Jesus spoke only to Peter. I refer you to this link to see why St. Peter was the Prince of the Apostles.
https://forums.catholic.com/t/why-did-jesus-name-simon-the-rock/452186/8

  1. Peter given some kind of special privilege in Matthew 16 has been refuted. Thou Art petros=masculine g., upon this Petra=feminine g.

That’s true. St. Matthew could not use the word “petra” because it is feminine. He had to use the masculine version of the word. But Jesus named Simon, “Cephas”. That is Aramaic for “Rock”.

I will build my Church. Christ built His Church upon the revelation that He was the Christ the very declaration Peter just uttered.

Christ built His Church upon Himself. This is why He named Simon, “Rock”. So that the whole world would know that Simon is walking in Christ’s stead.

The binding and loosening principle was given not just to Peter but to all the disciples and I would argue given to all of the Church. Mt. 18:18

But the keys, only to St. Peter.

Jesus Christ nowhere said that Peter was infallible. Please quote the exact verse?

Matt 16:18, but it can’t be understood without reading Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost. and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Ask yourself, to whom is Ananias speaking and therefore, lying?

Please quote the exact verse where the Church is infallible? Eph. 3:10 doesn’t talk about infallibility.

Is God’s wisdom infallible? Then if the Church Teaches God’s wisdom, the Catholic Church Teaches infallibly.

In addition,
1 Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

If the Church is the pillar and ground of truth, then the Church always upholds the truth and is therefore, infallible.

The eastern Churches disagreed with Rome’s power grab from the beginning. Of course we’re talking at least the 2nd. Century by this time.

Are you a member of an Eastern Church? You would do well to abandon the heresies of the Protestants and join any of the ancient Churches which still hold Apostolic Succession and therefore, Holy Orders.

You said…
The Church which is infallible (1 Tim 3:15; Eph 3:10). Neither of these verses say that…

Yes, they do. We can discuss each and everyone of those individually, whenever you’re ready.


#6

Many will agree the Catholic church is not the Church AT ALL!

As a Lutheran, I will (with joy) say that the Catholic Church is indeed a church - It’s a goodly church, where the Word of God is preached and the Sacraments are rightly administered.


#7

This is the heart of the matter. Is the Gospel preached by Rome the Gospel as delivered by the Apostles?

Are the doctrines developed by the Early Church Fathers further explanations of the doctrines delivered by the Apostles or are they new doctrines that was not taught by the Apostles?

Are the Traditions that the RCC ascribe to the Traditions that were given to them by the Apostles or are they Traditions that come from the speculation of early theologians and the syncretism of Roman religions, philosophy and culture that influenced the development of doctrines and practices of the church, which eventually became Sacred Tradition?

The protestant position is that many of the things the Catholic church hold as Sacred Tradition were not taught by the Apostles. They are things that the church incorporated over time from Platonic and later Aristotle philosophical methods, from pagans bringing religious practices and superstitions into the church when they converted to Christianity (many for political or social reason instead of true conversion to the Christian Faith) , the influence of the Roman cultural, legal and government systems, and speculative theology of the early theologians.

This is why I’ve primarily been reading books about church history. Catholics will say one thing about the development of the church and Protestants another. So I’ve been searching out and reading what historians say. A good historian will try to tell the facts and let the reader come to his own conclusion. I’ve discovered that good historians are hard to find.


#8

I thought the Lutherans did not believe in transubstantiation. Do they now consider it acceptable that “Rome” teaches this concept in its belief regarding Holy Communion? I’m surprised to hear a confessional Lutheran say the Sacraments are rightly administered in a Roman Catholic Church.


#9

The Catholic Church is moving towards re-unification with certain groups of Lutherans who do not believe that Luther intended to separate from the Church. I, for one, pray that this re-unification happens soon. Our Lord’s body should be healed.


#10

Yes, I too pray for unification of the Church as God intended. That said, I don’t believe we should compromise our doctrine or beliefs to do so.

I doubt any branch of the Lutheran Church will ever come to the conclusion the Catholic Church is infallible.

That said, I hope to be proven wrong some day.


#11

[quote=“lanman87, post:7, topic:452262, full:true”]
This is the heart of the matter. Is the Gospel preached by Rome the Gospel as delivered by the Apostles?

It is the only Church where this is perfectly true.

Are the doctrines developed by the Early Church Fathers further explanations of the doctrines delivered by the Apostles

Yes.

or are they new doctrines that was not taught by the Apostles?

No. The primary ones’ teaching traditions that were not taught by the Apostles, are the Protestants. As far as I know, the Eastern Orthodox Teach all the Catholic Doctrines. But they refuse to accept some, such as the Primacy of Peter and the Filioque.

Notice that all the early Churches have liturgy, priests, and Sacraments.

Are the Traditions that the RCC ascribe to the Traditions that were given to them by the Apostles

By Jesus Christ.

or are they Traditions that come from the speculation of early theologians and the syncretism of Roman religions, philosophy and culture that influenced the development of doctrines and practices of the church, which eventually became Sacred Tradition?

No.

The protestant position is that many of the things the Catholic church hold as Sacred Tradition were not taught by the Apostles.

That’s an error.

They are things that the church incorporated over time from Platonic and later Aristotle philosophical methods, from pagans bringing religious practices and superstitions into the church when they converted to Christianity (many for political or social reason instead of true conversion to the Christian Faith) , the influence of the Roman cultural, legal and government systems, and speculative theology of the early theologians.

The Catholic Church has always believed that faith and reason do not contradict. Therefore, the TRUE philosophies of the pagans will support and confirm the Doctrines of Jesus Christ.

This is why I’ve primarily been reading books about church history.

To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant.

Catholics will say one thing about the development of the church and Protestants another. So I’ve been searching out and reading what historians say. A good historian will try to tell the facts and let the reader come to his own conclusion. I’ve discovered that good historians are hard to find.

Lol! The really poor ones are on the Protestant side of the aisle.
:grinning:


#12

saying Jesus did not create a way to provide certainty to His followers, certainty that would continue after His Ascension in to heaven, is, in fact, saying that no one knows for sure what Jesus did and taught. it is every man and woman for themselves. every human being is a church of one. let division and confusion reign over all.

the jesus who would do that is not my Jesus. my Jesus knew exactly what He was doing. my Jesus would never leave me uncertain about His life and teachings.


#13

[quote=“eddietoo, post:12, topic:452262, full:true”]
saying Jesus did not create a way to provide certainty to His followers, certainty that would continue after His Ascension in to heaven, is, in fact, saying that no one knows for sure what Jesus did and taught. it is every man and woman for themselves. every human being is a church of one. let division and confusion reign over all.

In my opinion, that perfectly describes the Protestant state of affairs.

the jesus who would do that is not my Jesus. my Jesus knew exactly what He was doing. my Jesus would never leave me uncertain about His life and teachings.

Amen!


#14

Hi Mary!
Understood as a bulwark against very serious heresies, Lutherans don’t have a problem with the generally good idea Transubstantiation as a way of teaching the real presence of Christ in the Sacraments. Lutherans are just grumpy about how the definition is bound with Aristotelean thought and prefer to think of God’s sacrifice as a Mystery of faith.

Of course they’re rightly administered! We’re slightly annoyed with the Catholic church, but it’s a fine church and you are our friends in Christ. We claim that the Catholic church teaches error, but we’ll never say that you don’t preach the word and administer the sacraments.

Luther put if plainly: “I’d Rather drink pure blood with the Pope than mere wine with the fanatics.”


#15

Thanks Ben, your quote from Luther is one of my favorites!~


#16

Ianman87 I’ve been reading “Are We Together” by Dr. R.C.Sproul. Thanks for the tip. This book really helps understand how Roman Catholics process the concepts of the bible. Wow, what an eye opener.
I’m gonna’ post a few quotes here just because.

"The Protestant Reformation received its initial impetus from the controversy centering around indulgences in German. An Augustinian monk by the name of Martin Luther tacked ninety-five theses to the Church door at Wittenberg, inviting disputation concerning some abuses that he saw in this program of indulgences. That initial protest mushroomed into a much broader confrontation with Roman Catholic authorities on various points of theology. Luther participated in several important debates with representatives of the Roman Catholic Church.

Perhaps the most important of these was Luther’s appearance before Thomas Cardinal Cajetan, the pope’s representative to the Imperial Diet (the general assembly of the Holy Roman Empire) of Augsburg in 1518. In this encounter, Luther stated that in his opinion the pope could make mistakes in his ecclesiastical pronouncements.

As we will see in chapter 5 this was long before the Roman Catholic Church’s formal definition of the infallibility of the pope, which occurred in 1870. Nevertheless, the idea of papal authority was already tacitly assumed within the church. Yet Luther dared to challenge this idea, insisting that the pope’s teachings be documented from scripture. Likewise in later debates, particularly the debate at Leipzig with Martin Eck, the master German theologian of the Roman Catholic church at the time, Luther denied the infallibility of church councils."

Luther was right on. The popes are not infallible as so many believe. They were men far removed from the spirit of the New Testament.


#17

[quote=“tgGodsway, post:16, topic:452262, full:true”]…
Luther was right on. The popes are not infallible as so many believe. They were men far removed from the spirit of the New Testament.
[/quote]

You go on believing Luther and RC Sproul. We will continue believing Christ:

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven


#18

Christ built His Church upon Himself. This is why He named Simon, “Rock”. So that the whole world would know that Simon is walking in Christ’s stead. - O MY GOODNESS. NO. HE WASN’T SAYING HE WAS BUILDING THE CHURCH ON HIMSELF LITERALLY. HE IS BUILDING THE CHURCH UPON THE ROCK OF REVELATION PETER JUST UTTERED. THOU’ ART THE CHRIST. HE ENDED HIS THOUGHT IN VERSE 20 BY COMMANDING HIS DISCIPLES TO NOT TELL ANYONE HE WAS THE CHRIST.


#19

What?.. De_Maria … you don’t believe in the simple narratives of Christ. You believe the so-called successors who decree things far removed from Christ. These are false teachers who undermine the simple message of Christ work on the Cross.


#20

That’s true TOO.

CCC424 Moved by the grace of the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.'8 On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church.9

CCC552 Simon Peter holds the first place in the college of the Twelve;283 Jesus entrusted a unique mission to him. Through a revelation from the Father, Peter had confessed: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Our Lord then declared to him: "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it."284 Christ, the “living Stone”,285 thus assures his Church, built on Peter, of victory over the powers of death. Because of the faith he confessed Peter will remain the unshakable rock of the Church. His mission will be to keep this faith from every lapse and to strengthen his brothers in it.286


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