Where does word of God teach the Catholic Church is infallible?


#21

[quote=“tgGodsway, post:19, topic:452262, full:true”]
What?.. De_Maria … you don’t believe in the simple narratives of Christ.

On the contrary, it is you who don’t believe Christ’s narratives. For example:

Luke 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

Nowhere does Scripture imply that you have to read Scripture alone in order to receive His message.

You believe the so-called successors who decree things far removed from Christ.

That’s another example of your rejection of God’s word.

Hebrews 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

These are false teachers who undermine the simple message of Christ work on the Cross.
[/quote]

It is Protestants who are the fallen teachers who undermine the message of Christ work on the Cross.

Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. who lack faith that God can protect His Wisdom which comes to us through the preaching of the Church.


#22

Dear friend in Christ:

Fr Hardon, one of the 20th Centuries most esteem theologians taught this about truth:

“Truth is the CONDITION of grace, it is the SOURCE of grace, it is the CHANNEL of grace, it is the Divinely Ordained REQUIREMENT of grace” …which explains why Protestants =“to PROTEST” are unable to grasp elementary TRUTH, which can logically & morally be only singular per defined issue.

There can be but one TRUE God

Even GOD can have only One TRUE set of Faith beliefs

Yahweh choose “ONE Chosen People” & Jesus "One Church "Mt 16:18 "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build MY CHURCH {singular}, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.

As a “church” is identified by its set of faith beliefs; Jesus intended exactly what HE accomplished… One RCC, historically and biblically provable.

As to Jesus saying Peter was not infallible:
mmmm… Mt 16:18 quoted above hints at it & John 17:17-20 precisely articulates it

Jn 17:17-20 "Sanctify THEM in the truth; thy word is truth.
As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. {This is a literal TRUTH… … with Godly Powers & Authority …SEE Mt 10:1-3 …And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth. {no other faith or church except the RCC CAN claim Jesus Personally as their warrnty of TEACHING His TRUTHS
[20] "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,

As to the EASTERN Churches: THEY choose to be is SCHISM FROM the RCC, not the other way around.

There is much historical & biblical evidence that PETER was appointed head of Christ One TRUE Church; today’s RCC, which predated the Eastern Schism churches AND all Protestant- post -reformation churches as well, and is the One True Church and Faith of Jesus Christ.

Because SPACE is very limited I will address your other points on subsequent POST. Please my friend, take the time to read them.

Pope Benedict XVI shared: “THERE CAN’T BE YOUR TRUTH & MY TRUTH OR THERE WOULD BE NO TRUTH”…IF my friend you are unable to grasp this reality; noting anyone; even Jesus say’s will change your mind.

may God guide your path,
Patrick


#23

Well said,

Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth and the life”,


#24

De_Maria

“You said…
The Church which is infallible (1 Tim 3:15; Eph 3:10). Neither of these verses say that.”
REPLY:
The “church” is not infallible; but Her Magisterium IS when teaching of Faith & Morals only

The Church which is united (Eph 4:5). Neither of these verses say it was united.

Eph 4: 4-5 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

FURTHER: when the bible was authored [by the end of the 1st Century]- [it’s a Catholic book] the ONLY “Christian faith” was today’s Catholicism. Eastern churches were officially part of the RCC until 1054 AD

The doctrines of the Catholic Church which are distinctive from other churches:

Same Predate ALL other Christian churches by about 1,000 or MORE years, and are God’s singular One True Faith

Purgatory (1 Cor 3:15). This verse says nothing about the concept of purgatory

OK, so the term does not appear in the bible; so maybe you can show us where the term “bible” is in the Bible?

Rev. 21: 27 “But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

Mt. 5: 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

Matt.5: 48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

1 Tim 2:3-4 … Protestants fail to grasp this reality of God’s Mercy because they fail to understand the very nature of God & Divine Justice, & the nature of sin itself. Space prohibits a fuller explanation

Eucharist (1 Cor 11:23-27). The Lords supper is acknowledged

Thank you; BUT VERY often NOT the “Real Presence”; Jesus Christ Himself in Person in Catholic Holy Communion
Communion of Saints (Rom 12:12-20). Agreed
Thank you!

The Mass and the necessity to attend (Heb 10:25-31). None of these verses talk about the Mass
Once again time & terminology: Commandments: Keep holy the Sabbath day
The Sacrament of Confession (Heb 13:17). There is no mention of the concept of confession
1 Jn 5-6, 1 Jn 5: 16-17 & John 20:19-23

The Sacrament of Holy Orders (1 Tim 4:14).
Bestowed at the 1st Pentecost…SEE Mt 28:19-20
The Gift of the Holy Spirit
With Baptism: see Mt 28:19-20 & again in Conformatiom
The sacrament of Baptism (Titus 3:5) No mention of water baptism anywhere.
Jn 3:5 “Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God”
Justification and Salvation by faith and works (Rom. 2:1-13) Paul expounds on the impossibility to keep the Law for Salvation, but nothing here about what does save.
Needs its own post
GBY
PJM


#25

CONTINUED FROM ABOVE

OPPS, I’m still getting used to the NEW CAF

Pressed REPLY too soon

The key to understanding Justification and salvation is to IN HUMILITY turn to Christ and with HIS aid, seek HIS Truths; His Way.

Protestantism as a whole attempts to USURP Godly authority and dictate to God exactly HOW he MUST save them them; rather than discern How He has taught through His One True Church and Faith; He will conditionally do so


#26

In order to understand your response in the proper context, please tell me, whether or nor you are Catholic?

If you’re not Catholic, then I will assume your challenging what I said.
If you are Catholic, I’ll take it as filial correction. But I will make sure your correction is in accordance with Catholic Doctrine.


#27

[quote=“PJM, post:24, topic:452262, full:true”]

De_Maria
You said.

No, I didn’t.

Hi. I just recognized the post that you’re responding to. It’s tpGodsway’s response to mine.

You had me confused there for a moment.

No hard feelings.


#28

Scripture actually says nothing directly or explicitly in this vein as quotes above reveal.
However our current understanding is not in contradiction with Scripture and is in fact congruent with it.


#29

Agreed.


#30

If this is explicitly teaching current understandings of Papal infallibility then the Bible can be made to say anything. Which of course is why we have a Magisterium to discern such non clear conclusions. But can it infallibly declare that the Bible is saying the Church is infallible.

That sounds like circular logic…unless we posit that this interpretative authority is justified outside of Scripture.
That would seem to be the case.
To try and use Scripture itself as the sole basis for Catholic truths is not Catholicism but Protestantism.

As Proestants do not read this passage in the way we do that suggests it is not objectively clear in Scripture at all.


#31

The problem here is not about infallibility. Ephesians 3:10 teaches nothing of the sort. Those who insist on making this passage say something it simply does not say are forcing it and manipulating holy scripture.

But it does tell us the Church is to proclaim the manifold wisdom of God. But who is the Church? … Is it an organization of people who sit in Rome? it may include some of them, but the Church = ekklesia = are those who are called OUT into the public. The public believers under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit are to proclaim what the Apostles and prophet’s proclaimed. (v5).

That message began with the fact that the gentiles are now "fellow-heirs, and of the same body (v6)


#32

[quote=“BlackFriar, post:30, topic:452262, full:true”]

If this is explicitly teaching current understandings of Papal infallibility then the Bible can be made to say anything.

There’s a difference between “the Church is infallible” and “Papal infallibility”. The verses which speak to Papal infallibility are Matt 16:18-19 and John 21:17.

Which of course is why we have a Magisterium to discern such non clear conclusions. But can it infallibly declare that the Bible is saying the Church is infallible.

You didn’t answer my question? Why? I asked:

In Eph 3:10, where it says that the Church will “teach the Wisdom of God, even in the heavens”, I think that is a direct statement that the Church is infallible. What else could it mean?

That sounds like circular logic…unless we posit that this interpretative authority is justified outside of Scripture.

Which it is. We believe in Sacred Tradition and Magisterium. Are you positing that we don’t have an interpretative authority? Then you’re falling into the Protestant trap. They would love for you to follow their hermeneutics so that you can arrive at their conclusions.

That would seem to be the case.
To try and use Scripture itself as the sole basis for Catholic truths is not Catholicism but Protestantism.

You’re creating a straw man in order to justify your prejudices. I am Catholic. I’m not positing Scripture alone. But I am saying that there are some things in Scripture that are absolutely clear. The Catholic Church does not teach that ever single verse in Scripture is so unclear that it must be interpreted by the Church before we can understand it.

Or if it does, produce the teaching.

As Proestants do not read this passage in the way we do that suggests it is not objectively clear in Scripture at all.

The fact that Protestants don’t read it the same way we do says nothing about the objective nature of the passage. Objectivity means it is set down impartially and without prejudice. It has nothing to do with the nature in which it is received. Protestants read into Scripture their prejudices. Whereas, the Catholic Church Teaches us the Word of God, through Sacred Tradition and part of that Tradition, is the written Word.


#33

[quote=“tgGodsway, post:31, topic:452262, full:true”]
The problem here is not about infallibility. Ephesians 3:10 teaches nothing of the sort.

Then what does it teach?

Those who insist on making this passage say something it simply does not say are forcing it and manipulating holy scripture.

On the contrary, those who claim that it doesn’t are manipulating Scripture.

But it does tell us the Church is to proclaim the manifold wisdom of God. But who is the Church? … Is it an organization of people who sit in Rome? it may include some of them, but the Church = ekklesia = are those who are called OUT into the public. The public believers under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit are to proclaim what the Apostles and prophet’s proclaimed. (v5).

This is a strange thing about Protestants. You seem to think that words only have one meaning. But to us, “Church” has three meanings.

  1. The Magisterium.
  2. The universal Church.
  3. The local Church.

In the context, this is speaking of the Magisterium, the Teaching Church. That is the Church to which the charism of infallibility applies since that is the Church that is Teaching the Wisdom of God in obedience to Christ’s command.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

That message began with the fact that the gentiles are now "fellow-heirs, and of the same body (v6)

Read it in context. It is saying that the Church has been commissioned to preach to the entire world. Start with verse 1.


#34

Uhhh… no. The narrative about Peter feeding God’s sheep does not go as far as you do. Paul also fed God’s sheep. James also fed God’s sheep. John fed God’s sheep. All of these were Apostles who function in a pastoral role but the bible is clear, “Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ…” 1st. Peter chp. 1 verse 1

When you say “Church” you are not using the word in the intent of the Apostles. For them, the Church were people willing to come out into the public to proclaim God’s Kingdom. The idea that it is some kind of organization like a business is outside of New Testament thinking. Rome is not the headquarters for this global organization with all of its tradition and style. The Church is made up of “living stones” (1st. Pet. 2:5) from all over the world, some of them are in the Roman Catholic Church.


#35

There is no disagreement that the Church is to preach the manifold wisdom of God to the whole world, especially the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This is what the Church does even now!


#36

This has turned into quite a complex discussion. I’ll offer one point.

Petrus/petra:

Christ was not speaking Greek when He said this. He was speaking Aramaic. Cephas=rock or stone.
“Thou art Rock, and on this Rock I will build my Church.”

When the Gospel was committed to writing in Greek, the writer had a problem. Petra=Rock; but the author could not say that Christ told Simon “You are Petra”, because that was a girl’s name in Greek as it is in English. So he changed the ending, saying Petrus instead of Petra. The difference is not in meaning; it is in grammatical ending.

In Aramaic: You are Cephas and on this Cephas I will build my Church.
In English: You are Rock, and on the Rock I will build my Church.
Only in the Greek is there a difficulty in translation.


#37

Where does word of God teach the Catholic Church is infallible?

John 16: 5-15. Jesus instructs the apostles that he will send the Holy Spirit to guide. Now let me see, to say the church established by Peter will be guided by a Holy Spirit that may allow error in teaching, is laughable. Those who say the church established on Peter and his successors is fallible even though guided by the Advocate (Holy Spirit) … well, I can’t think of a charitable or kind response to such inanity.


#38

That criticism is a little like saying that the Congress of the United States is far away from the intent of the founding fathers because the members don’t ride horses and carry muskets and wear three pointed hats. Traditions of dress and respect for office have evolved over time. I would agree that there is a bit of pomp and circumstance observed in the reception of the church leaders, but it probably stems more from people’s need to look up to leaders than a shift to worship of the prelates.

And the last several popes have done away with much of the concept of “royalty” of the church leaders and pastors.


#39

No that’s not really an apples to apples example. The people practically worshiped him. It was ridiculous. Jesus said the greatest in the kingdom of God is the least among my brethren. There was nothing “least” about the pope on that day.


#40

Aren’t you being a little harsh. When I was a little kid, I worshiped Mickey Mantle, adored him really. Some people, in some ways, remain little kids. Some people take things too far. Just visit some Italian homes in and around New York, and you’ll find what you would consider worship of various saints. Besides, the Pope, to Catholics, is the Vicar of Christ on Earth. Something that is anathema to protestants, but someone that people, in this world rapidly circling the drain, need to look up to. I appreciate your sentiment and can understand it objectively, but if it is a moral judgment, you are out of line. You are making a judgment on the maturity and emotional needs and desires of people. You don’t actually think they are worshiping him as someone Divine???


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.