Where is God during the attacks on Copts in Egypt, and what is God doing as evil grows during your prayers? (Evidence for Atheism)

Where is God as the world grows more evil in spite of your prayers? What is God doing in answer to your prayers?

After reading this news article from the Associated Press, God appears conspicuously absent from their plight. Also, I found that article after reading about how Governor Chris Christie of New Jersey abdicated the fight to preserve marriage in New Jersey. The latter comes after repeated prayers of Christians to protect religious liberty and preserve founding principles of the USA, and I’m sure the Copts have been praying, and before creating this thread I searched ‘Egypt’ and found others praying for Egypt here, too, since July 3rd. So you’ve been praying for Egypt since July, and three months later (15 minutes ago) we hear of 21 being injured at a wedding, four of which have died. Is this what comes of your prayers for Egypt?

In other words, it appears from this cursory inspection that prayer is negatively correlated with good in the world: The more you pray, the more evil the world becomes. Where are the positive results of your prayer? Just yesterday we heard Jesus telling us that God will render us just decisions even more quickly than the corrupt judges of this world: [BIBLEDRB]Luke 18:1-8[/BIBLEDRB] Yet people have been praying for conscience rights protections from the U.S. Health and Human Services mandate for years now, and no change has occurred, and on every other count the situation appears to be worsening, as exemplified by those two cases above.

So is Jesus lying? If the answer to that is ‘Yes,’ then all of Christianity is undone. But how else can we understand this passage? St. Peter tells us about time, as Jesus uses the word “quickly”: [BIBLEDRB]2 Peter 3:3-15[/BIBLEDRB] Note particularly verse 8. So it appears that Jesus is not saying that God will render us just decisions more quickly than the corrupt judges of this earth: He is using the word “quickly” as only heaven can understand it. He is telling us that we must be patient, and that because God is good, we have all the more reason to be patient in our sufferings – i.e., endure them with thanksgiving – even unto death – as St. Paul says: [BIBLEDRB]Col 4:2[/BIBLEDRB]

This satisfies the intellect, but emotion remains raw: [BIBLEDRB]Rev 6:9-10[/BIBLEDRB] So I am sorely tempted to lose heart and to lose faith, and I cannot understand calling God “Father” when He lets His children be persecuted and beaten to death on His playground, watching but not intervening. “Oh, but He does intervene: Jesus on the Cross, so we might not truly die (i.e. go to hell).” This response answers that objection only to raise another: We don’t understand what hell is. This life is all we know. It’s like a financial advisor helping you with your taxes, charging you a lifetime of wages but telling you he’s saved you from some terrible tax burden. It seems to be the logical fallacy of moving the goalposts: “Yes, God has intervened and saved you, but not in a way that you’ll understand or realize until after you’re dead.” Are you not praying for an intervention in Egypt now, for an end to the conflict and persecution? If you’re praying for an end to the conflict, the opposite seems to be occurring – but more to the point, since God is sovereign, since “He’s got the whole world / in His hands,” God’s will is occurring there anyway, right? [BIBLEDRB]Matthew 5:39[/BIBLEDRB] But this seems absurd: God wants the best for you, and this means he wants people to die at your wedding?

And so, as Trent Horn has challenged the atheist or agnostic to provide supporting evidence for answering the question, “Does God exist?” with “No,” this suffering, this worsening of the world even in the face of steadfast, faithful prayer, is such evidence: Evil is only a mystery or problem for the theist who believes in a loving, omnipotent God, whereas it is to be expected under atheistic materialism. I would like to see Trent Horn’s response, and yours.

To be clear, my intention is not to destroy faith or to cause people to fall away; my intention is to seek truth, to seek answers, and to cry out to God. [BIBLEDRB]Gen 4:10[/BIBLEDRB] I would love to know that God exists and to see Him right these wrongs, but all I see is misery.

God did not allow misery, pain, sickness or other calamity in the beginning, before the fall of Adam and Eve. Now, I believe He allows it not just because we deserve it (partly, we do) but so that we can know what good is, that we may seek Him, His goodness and Eternal Life and happiness for its own good but also as an escape from the earthly experience of sin and evil.

“All things work to the good for those who love the Lord”, says St. Paul. So, even evil helps us to try to escape it through the only Good, that is God.

I do not understand this entire line of reasoning. God does not allow or disallow violence toward any group. He is not a great puppet master manipulating the world like a giant video game. Human behavior is governed by free will and God does not interfere with free will. The Muslims are slaughtering Christians by acts of their free will. The Christians have the free will and means to stop it. Humanity is failing by not stepping in and stopping the atrocity. God is not to blame. Humans are the cause of it and they are the solution to it.

Unfortunately, violence begets violence.

How do you know the prayers didnt work? Maybe the prayers averted more deaths from happening!

In the short run but history is rife with violence ending and solving violence and evil. Violence ended the slaughter of the Jews in WWII, violence ended the genocide carried out by the Japanese in China, violence has ended countless murderous regimes. When good men stand by and do nothing to stop evil people suffer.

The faith endured the Black Death, when over half the human population vanished, leaving entire towns empty, families reduced to one or no living members. If your faith is rocked by a terror attack, killing a handful of people, then perhaps you should ask yourself why the people of the 14th century retained their faith in the face of a tragedy the modern mind can scarcely imagine, while your faith is shaken by this one crime.

:thumbsup:

All that matters is that one day I will die. Maybe sooner, maybe later. Will I die in the friendship of God, or against Him? My time here on earth is a moment only, eternity will be forever.

I am enjoying His love, His company, today. Because of Him, I am not in the throws of alcoholism, or addictions, or bitterness, anger or resentment. I am free to be kind to my neighbor and bring a blessing on this earth.

How you want to use this day is up to you.

If I died sooner, rather than later, I would count it a blessing. To me, it’s like winning 50 million and regardless of my age, I can retire and enjoy my life with loved ones. I would rather win the lottery sooner than later.

God bless.

God does not attack people other people attack people and it is the responsibility of the rest of us to fight for justice even if it is for people outside of our faith. Most American Catholics do not pray AND FAST for others well.

When I see awful things happening in the world, it only convinces me more that we need God.

What kind of world would we have if everyone lived the 10 Commandments? I think it would be unrecognizable from what we see everyday in the news.

Ive always wondered where God was during the jewish holcaust? God even said in the bible he would not allow harm to his people, yet Hitler killed millions of them.

I would have expected God to descend down into the concentration camps at the very first execution and literally destroy the Nazis. Surely he saw this happening…?

Umm where does it say God would not allow harm to his people? Biblical history is rife with Jewish suffering. The bible for tells that the Jews will suffer for their disobedience to God.

“You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do you also”. Acts 7:51

“But Jesus turning to them, said: Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not over me; but weep for yourselves, and for your children”. Luke 23:28

“And the whole people answering, said: His blood be upon us and our children”. Matthew 27:25.

The prophets warned of the suffering of Israel. It is not politically correct but truth is truth, God is justice just as he is mercy. The justice of God is terrible, that is why we are called to embrace the mercy of Christ because without it doom awaits. When God has his fill and decides that we have had enough time to repent he will visit his justice upon us for your violations of his law and the fornications of our land. Israel is a example for us all that Gods wrath awaits if we do not follow Christ. Christ came the first time as mercy but as the Apocalypse of John tells us when he comes again his eyes will be like flame and his mouth a sword. He will come as a judge and we will all account.

As children, my brother and I argued a lot. My parents did not step in unless it got physical or just really annoying. My point is, they didn’t fail to step in because they were impotent, or because they agreed with and supported the insulting, belittling, etc. They didn’t step in so that we could work it out, learn to get along, and most importantly, learn how to love each other. God lets things go further because His goal isn’t halfway decent, thoughtful, independent people by adulthood, but saints by the hour of death. That requires considerably more choice and freedom.

Where’s God? Same place he was through the first 85% of the Book of Job.

People today tend to think of God as their butler who owes them servitude and blessings and get angry when God doesn’t snap to it. Go ahead and tell him He’s doing a lousy job. Job tried that too. He got a bucketful of humble for his moxy too.

Worth remembering.

I work with a Catholic from Egypt. The other day she was telling me of the many faith-building experiences that are common place among her communities in Egypt over the past few months. She used the word ‘miracles’.

We only get to hear or read what the news-makers deem worthy of sharing. What individual people experience is often only shared with their close friends, if spoken about at all.

Never assume that God is not responding to prayers just because you aren’t there to see what is happening.

Great post. However, isn’t it unreasonable of God to expect us to continue spending effort doing something without seeing any results for it? It seems so unjust that it sounds as if Jesus is telling God something he didn’t already know when he says, “The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak,” as if God doesn’t realize how weak it actually is.

Moreover, God expects us to use our reason, and our reason suggests that after trying something repeatedly and not seeing the results we want, to quit doing that and try something else. Is it not unreasonable for God to expect us to continue praying without seeing positive results?

the crux of the matter is that Christianity (pick your version of it) demands to be accepted by “faith” or sheer luck (born in that particular influence/society). To the critical mind that asks for evidence, demonstration and meaning, Christianity will not and can not address this. The Christian God will not permit himself to be tested under a microscope, nor will he put an end to this hide and seek game that had been played; for argument sake 7,000 years or so, give or take a few. Through the ages Christianly has had many beliefs and convictions even enforcing many of them to the death for those that did not agree with its views. Science has debunked many primitive and no so primitive religious views whether Christian, Pagan, Roman, Egyptian, Islamic etc…

History has shown us that religions and beliefs come and go. From the development of the human species which is a scientifically demonstrable fact i.e. hominids.

Genocides occur because we stand idle and wait for someone else or something else (which may not even be there) to take action.

As a child I was taught to believe (faith) in Santa Clause, then the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy-fill in the blank.

To think that we are destined to everlasting damnation because we choose to ask questions and seek truth is preposterous and an example of arbitrary control of the masses.

Religion for the sake of community and the advancement of the human spirit has served its purpose. Its now sciences turn to lead us into the next phase of life.

We can flip it the other way and say that all the evil in the world is solid evidence for the existence of Satan. And if Satan is real then God is real since our knowledge of each comes from the same source - God’s divine revelation. Satan is a lot easier to see in the world than God because it’s easier to notice when things are messed up than when they are in order.

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