Where is that in the quran?


#1

I have heard that Muslims, in advancing the cause of thier religion, are allowed to lie. Is this true, and if so, is it in the quran anywhere?


#2

I have heard that this teaching is specific to Shi’a Islam, as I heard once Fr. Pacwa say this on EWTN Radio - Open Line. And Father Pacwa has spent many years in Islamic countries. He mentioned it because he was doubting whether Iran really wants to use nuclear power for peaceful purposes, since there is not one, or only one (?), Nuclear power plant built in Iran (for the sake of peaceful nuclear purposes). He said that Iran is Shi’a dominant and in Shiism it’s permitted to lie if it will advance the religion.

But I am not Muslim, maybe a Muslim here can speak on this matter more clearly for us.


#3

It’s in the tradition, not quran:

Humaid b. 'Abd al-Rahman b. 'Auf reported that his mother Umm Kulthum daughter of 'Uqba b. Abu Mu’ait, and she was one amongst the first emigrants who pledged allegiance to Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him), as saying that she heard Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: A liar is not one who tries to bring reconciliation amongst people and speaks good (in order to avert dispute), or he conveys good. Ibn Shihab said he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them). (Sahih Muslim, Hadith number 6303-05; Sahih al-Bukhari 3.857)

Muhammad condoned lying it seems when it suited him:

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
Allah’s Apostle said, “Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?” Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, “O Allah’s Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?” The Prophet said, “Yes,” Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, “You may say it.” … (Sahih al-Bukhari 5.369)


#4

In Jesus,

I thought i explained to you before that Kab was aiding pagans with weapons and money to annihilate the Muslims. This was done openly and he was an open enemy of Muslims. Sunni Islam has no such thing as lying to advance your religion .

14 ,

If you have any questions about Sunni Islam you can ask me via pm or on the threads,

Thanks


#5

al-Takeyya or al-Taqiyya

In Islam, lying or omissions for the ‘greater good,’ according to a strict or radical Islam/Islamist philosophy is not only acceptable, it is holy and blessed work. It is called al-Takeyya (or al-Taqiyya) and is a strategy outlined in the Hadiths and supported by various interpretations of some of the Suras in the Koran. We have just seen it in action and most people never even caught the whiff of mental ether the Islamists were pouring into the airways of the already comatose and choking non-Islamist world.

Al-Takeyya is a policy whereby a Muslim may lie, deceive or omit critical truths if it promotes the spreading of Islam AND the conquest of the non-Muslim world. According to William P. Welty, Ph.D., al-Takeyya/Taqiyya is:

“The Islamic principle of lying for the sake of Allah. Falsehoods told to prevent denigration of Islam, to protect oneself, or to promote the cause of Islam are sanctioned by the Qur’an, including lying under penalty of perjury in testimony before the United States Congress, lying or making distorted statements to the media such as claiming that Islam is a religion of peace and deceiving fellow Muslims when the one lying has deemed them to be apostates.” (1)

And here is the definition from an Islam encyclopedia website:

"The word “al-Taqiyya” literally means: “Concealing or disguising one’s beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions, and/or strategies…” (2)
freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1362038/posts

It’s in the Koran, too. But it’s their god who does the deceiving.

Al-lah caused people to think that Jesus had been killed, but that didn’t happen (according to the Koran)
[4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

Another translation reads…
“And because of their saying (in boast), ‘We killed Messiah ‘Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allaah,’ — but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared so to them the resemblance of ‘Eesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man)], and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not *”

[al-Nisa’ 4:157]*


#6

Ok, I’ll try to explain this, as the above article is, unfortunately, completely wrong.

Firstly ‘Taqiyya’ refers to outwardly hiding your faith when your life is in danger (or other people’s lives are in danger) if being a Muslim was known. It’s got nothing to do with lying to people about Islam to help spread the faith or any such nonsense like that.

It is primarily a Shi’a teaching, although some Sunni scholars would argue that it is *permissable *(though martyrdom is more admirable).

Whether it’s in the Qur’an or not is questionable, it ultimately depends how this particular verse is interpreted.

Those who, after accepting faith in Allah, utter disbelief, not him who is forced, his heart remaining firm in faith, but him who opens their heart to disbelief; on them is Wrath from Allah, and they shall have a dreadful penalty. (Sura 16:106)

Some say that this verse means that those who are forced to utter disbelief while still having faith in their hearts aren’t committing a sin by doing so. While others would argue that this view is reading too deeply into the verse, and that the essential message of it is that those who after accepting faith in God, reject Him, will face a stern punishment in the hereafter; and that the ‘not him who is forced, his heart remaining firm in faith’ is only there to emphasise the rejection of God, not to make an exception.

Both views have been given by Islamic Scholars of great reknown. Al-Ghazali for example took the first view, Ibn Tayymiah took the second view.

And 4:157 doesn’t have anything to do with Taqiyya. God is not said to have deceived anyone there, the people deceived themselves by following conjecture.

Peace all. :slight_smile:


#7

Ok, I’ll try to explain this, as the above article is, unfortunately, completely wrong.

Firstly ‘Taqiyya’ refers to outwardly hiding your faith when your life is in danger (or other people’s lives are in danger) if being a Muslim was known. It’s got nothing to do with lying to people about Islam to help spread the faith or any such nonsense like that.

It is primarily a Shi’a teaching, although some Sunni scholars would argue that it is permissable (though martyrdom is more admirable).

Whether it’s in the Qur’an or not is questionable, it ultimately depends how this particular verse is interpreted.

Those who, after accepting faith in Allah, utter disbelief, not him who is forced, his heart remaining firm in faith, but him who opens their heart to disbelief; on them is Wrath from Allah, and they shall have a dreadful penalty. (Sura 16:106)

Some say that this verse means that those who are forced to utter disbelief while still having faith in their hearts aren’t committing a sin by doing so. While others would argue that this view is reading too deeply into the verse, and that the essential message of it is that those who after accepting faith in God, reject Him, will face a stern punishment in the hereafter; and that the ‘not him who is forced, his heart remaining firm in faith’ is only there to emphasise the rejection of God, not to make an exception.

Both views have been given by Islamic Scholars of great reknown. Al-Ghazali for example took the first view, Ibn Tayymiah took the second view.

And 4:157 doesn’t have anything to do with Taqiyya. God is not said to have deceived anyone there, the people deceived themselves by following conjecture.

Peace all. :slight_smile:


#8

That’s not true. It says that the ‘appearence’ of Jesus was made upon another. Most Moslems ascribe that task to al-lah, that al-lah made another appear to look like Jesus. That is, he deceived them with a false impression.

There are also cases in the Hadith where deception was used as a tool of combating the enemies of Muhammed


#9

It’s understandable that you want to present a different face to Islam.

Here’s an example from the Hadith of Muhammad allowing a lie… where Muhammad allowed a man to use a falsity in order to kill someone…

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369:

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

Allah’s Apostle said, “Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?” Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, “O Allah’s Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?” The Prophet said, “Yes,” Muhammad bin Maslama said, **"Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, “You may say it.” **Then Muhammad bin Maslama went to Kab and said, “That man (i.e. Muhammad demands Sadaqa (i.e. Zakat) from us, and he has troubled us, and I have come to borrow something from you.” On that, Kab said, “By Allah, you will get tired of him!” Muhammad bin Maslama said, “Now as we have followed him, we do not want to leave him unless and until we see how his end is going to be. Now we want you to lend us a camel load or two of food.” (Some difference between narrators about a camel load or two.) Kab said, “Yes, (I will lend you), but you should mortgage something to me.” Muhammad bin Mas-lama and his companion said, “What do you want?” Ka’b replied, “Mortgage your women to me.” They said, “How can we mortgage our women to you and you are the most handsome of the 'Arabs?” Ka’b said, “Then mortgage your sons to me.” They said, “How can we mortgage our sons to you? Later they would be abused by the people’s saying that so-and-so has been mortgaged for a camel load of food. That would cause us great disgrace, but we will mortgage our arms to you.” Muhammad bin Maslama and his companion promised Kab that Muhammad would return to him. He came to Kab at night along with Kab’s foster brother, Abu Na’ila. Kab invited them to come into his fort, and then he went down to them. His wife asked him, “Where are you going at this time?” Kab replied, “None but Muhammad bin Maslama and my (foster) brother Abu Na’ila have come.” His wife said, "I hear a voice as if dropping blood is from him, Ka’b said. “They are none but my brother Muhammad bin Maslama and my foster brother Abu Naila. A generous man should respond to a call at night even if invited to be killed.” Muhammad bin Maslama went with two men. (Some narrators mention the men as 'Abu bin Jabr. Al Harith bin Aus and Abbad bin Bishr). So Muhammad bin Maslama went in together with two men, and sail to them, “When Ka’b comes, I will touch his hair and smell it, and when you see that I have got hold of his head, strip him. I will let you smell his head.” Kab bin Al-Ashraf came down to them wrapped in his clothes, and diffusing perfume. Muhammad bin Maslama said. " have never smelt a better scent than this. Ka’b replied. “I have got the best 'Arab women who know how to use the high class of perfume.” Muhammad bin Maslama requested Ka’b “Will you allow me to smell your head?” Ka’b said, “Yes.” Muhammad smelt it and made his companions smell it as well. Then he requested Ka’b again, “Will you let me (smell your head)?” Ka’b said, “Yes.” When Muhammad got a strong hold of him, he said (to his companions), “Get at him!” So they killed him and went to the Prophet and informed him. (Abu Rafi) was killed after Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf."
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html#005.059.369


#10

I don’t know, but this just sounds wacko. Even atheists hate liars.


#11

That’s not true. It says that the ‘appearence’ of Jesus was made upon another.

That’s a common misconception actually, what the Qur’an says is that ‘they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared to them so’. Anything about the appearance of Jesus (as) being made upon aother is purely speculation on how to interpret that verse.

Could you please simply read Meedo’s post just a few above your’s Montalban? Firstly Taqiyya only concerns hiding one’s faith to avoid death, the Hadith you’ve quoted is about a man killed in a war, it has nothing to do with the topic.

A couple of links for you if you’d like.

There’s this comprehensive exposition, from a Shi’a site: al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter6b/1.html
And the (quite good) Wikipedia article on the subject:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya


#12

I alredy noted that the ‘appearence’ was made. Who made that happen? Al-lah! That’s who. Your ‘god’ made a substitute appear like Jesus so that the people would think that they had killed Jesus. He deceived them.

I quoted an Hadith that has a man asking Muhammed for permission to tell a lie. He’s allowed to do so.


#13

#14

did you? sorry i just don’t remember. Anyway yes i know it’s more of a Shia practice, like the temporary marriages and i’ll check their point of view. thx.


#15

For the record, I wouldn’t trust much of what meedo says. He is the same poster who, on a thread I started, claimed that God considers some people worthless.

I did see a second muslim poster on this thread try to claim that there are no examples of Allah lying in the Quran and that lying is not sanctioned by Islam. I’m sorry, but this just isn’t true.

The thing is, most muslims are good, reasonable people. Unfortunately for them, they have grown up in a culture where Islam is the dominant religion. In this scenario, they have come to believe their cultural values are taught by Islam. That is to say that they believe that the good normal things children are taught, have been taught to them because of their religion. But they haven’t. Usually the values in question, honesty, forthrightness, etc. have been carried over from the culture that preexisted the coming of Islam. This is a big claim I’m making, and I’m not going to try to support it here, except for citing examples of deception and lying in the formal scriptures of Islam.

Here they are from the Quran and the Hadith:

Bukhari:V7B67N427 “The Prophet said, ‘If I take an oath and later find something else better than that, then I do what is better and expiate my oath.’”

Qur’an 9:3 “Allah and His Messenger dissolve obligations.”

Qur’an 66:1 “Allah has already sanctioned for you the dissolution of your vows.”

Bukhari:V4B52N268 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘War is deceit.’”

Qur’an 4:142 “Surely the hypocrites strive to deceive Allah. He shall retaliate by deceiving them.”

Bukhari:V7B71N661 “Magic was worked on Allah’s Apostle and he was bewitched so that he began to imagine doing things which in fact, he had not done.”

Bukhari:V6B60N8 "Umar said, ‘Our best Qur’an reciter is Ubai. And in spite of this, we leave out some of his statements because Allah’s Apostle himself said, “Whatever verse or revelation We abrogate or cause to be forgotten We bring a better one.”

Qur’an 33:11 “In that situation the Believers were sorely tried and shaken as by a tremendous shaking. And behold! The Hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease said: ‘Allah and His Messenger promised us nothing but delusion; they have promised only to deceive us.”

Qur’an 33:14 “Say: Flight will not avail you if you flee from death, killing, or slaughter. In that case you will not be allowed to enjoy yourselves but a little while. Say, ‘Who will screen you, saving you from Allah if he intends to harm and injure you?’”

Qur’an 33:21 “You have in (Muhammad) the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern of conduct for any one to follow.”

Qur’an 74:31 “We have appointed nineteen angels to be the wardens of the Hell Fire. We made a stumbling-block for those who disbelieve and We have fixed their number as a trial for unbelievers in order that the people of the Book may arrive with certainty, and that no doubts may be left for the people of the Book, those in whose hearts is a disease. And for those to whom the Scripture Book has been given, and the believers, there should be no doubt. The unbelievers may say, ‘What does the Lord intend by this?’ The Lord will lead astray whomever He pleases, and He will guide whomever He pleases: and none can know the armies of your Lord except He, and this is no other than a warning to mankind.”

Qur’an 74:52 “Each one of them wants to be given scrolls of revelation spread out! No! By no means! Nay, this is an admonishment. Let them keep it in remembrance! But they will not heed unless the Lord wants them to. He is the fountain of fear.”

Bukhari:V2B24N555 “I heard the Prophet say, ‘Allah hates for you for asking too many questions.’”

Qur’an 89:5 “There surely is an oath for thinking man.”

Qur’an 92:8 “We will make smooth for him the path to misery.”

Ishaq:519 “Hajjaj said to the Apostle, ‘I have money scattered among the Meccan merchants, so give me permission to go and get it.’ Having got Muhammad’s permission, he said, ‘I must tell lies.’ The Apostle said, ‘Tell them.’”

Qur’an 8:58 “If you apprehend treachery from a people with whom you have a treaty, retaliate by breaking off relations with them.”

Qur’an 47:24 “Do they not understand the Qur’an? Nay, on the hearts there are locks preventing them from understanding.”

Ishaq:548 “By Allah, the black mass has spread. Abu Bakr said, ‘There is not much honesty among people nowadays.’”

Qur’an 5:41 “Whomever Allah wants to deceive you cannot help. Allah does not want them to know the truth because he intends to disgrace them and then torture them.”

Qur’an 5:101 “Believers! Do not ask questions about things which if made plain and declared to you, may vex you, causing you trouble.”

Qur’an 5:102 “Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account they lost their faith and became disbelievers.”

Continued…


#16

Continued from above…

Ishaq:567 “Muhammad informed Umar [the second Caliph], and he called the Prophet a liar.”

Tabari IX:36
Ishaq:596 “‘Prophet, this group of Ansar have a grudge against you for what you did with the booty and how you divided it among you own people.’ ‘Ansar, what is this talk I hear from you? What is the grudge you harbor against me? Do you think ill of me? Did I not come to you when you were erring and needy, and then made rich by Allah?’ ‘You came to us discredited, when your message was rejected by the Quraysh, and we believed you. You were forsaken and deserted and we assisted you. You were a fugitive and we took you in, sheltering you. You were poor and in need, and we comforted you.”

Bukhari:V6B60N662 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘Some eloquent speech is as effective as magic.’”

Tabari VI:110 “When Muhammad brought a revelation from Allah canceling what Satan had cast on the tongue of His Prophet, the Quraysh said, ‘Muhammad has repented of [reneged on] what he said concerning the position of our gods with Allah. He has altered [the bargain] and brought something else.’ Those two phrases which Satan had cast on Muhammad’s tongue of were in the mouth of every polytheist. The Messenger said, ‘I have fabricated things against Allah and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken.’”

Qur’an 40:32 “O my People! I fear a Day when there will be mutual wailing. No one shall defend you against Allah. Any whom Allah causes to err, there is no guide. That is how Allah leads the skeptic astray.”

Ishaq:248 “Allah has sealed their hearts and their hearing, blinding them so that they will never find guidance. And that is because they have declared you a liar and they do not believe in what has come down from their Lord to you even though they believe in all that came down before you. For opposing you they will have an awful punishment.”

Qur’an 2:6 “As for the disbelievers, it is the same whether you warn them or not; they will not believe. Allah has set a seal upon their hearts, upon their hearing, and a covering over their eyes. There is a great torment for them.”

Qur’an 2:9 “They deceive Allah and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves, and realize (it) not! In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease. Grievous is the painful doom they (incur) because they (lie).”

Qur’an 8:18 “This and surely; Allah weakens the deceitful plots of unbelieving infidels.”

Qur’an 8:30 “Remember how the unbelievers plotted against you (Muhammad). They plotted, and Allah too had arranged a plot; but Allah is the best schemer.”

Ishaq:323 “I am the best of plotters. I deceived them with My guile so that I delivered you from them.”

Qur’an 8:49 “When the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease said: ‘The religion has deceived and misled them.’”

Qur’an 8:71 “If they try to deceive you, remember they have deceived Allah before.”

Tabari VII:85
Ishaq:363 “The Jews of the Qaynuqa replied, ‘Muhammad, do you think that we are like your people? Do not be deluded by the fact that you met a people with no knowledge and you made good use of your opportunity.’”

Ishaq:365
Tabari VII:94 “Muhammad bin Maslamah said, ‘O Messenger, we shall have to tell lies.’ ‘Say what you like,’ Muhammad replied. ‘You are absolved, free to say whatever you must.’”

Bukhari:V5B59N369 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?’ Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslamah got up saying, ‘O Allah’s Apostle! Would you like me to kill him?’ The Prophet said, ‘Yes,’ Maslamah said, ‘Then allow me to say false things in order to deceive him.’ The Prophet said, ‘You may say such things.’”

Qur’an 61:5 “Moses said: ‘O my people, why do you annoy and insult me, when you well know I am Allah’s Messenger?’ Then when they turned away, Allah caused them to be deceived.”

Bukhari:V4B52N233 “Allah’s Apostle forbade the people to travel to a hostile country carrying copies of the Qur’an. [He said:] Unbelievers will never understand our signs and revelations.”

Continued…


#17

Continued from above…

Ishaq:248 “Allah increases their sickness. A tormented doom awaits the Jews. Allah said, ‘They are mischief makers. They are fools. The Jews deny the truth and contradict what the Apostle has brought. I will mock them and let them continue to wander blindly.’”

Bukhari:V4B52N147 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘A man may seem as if he were practicing the deeds of Paradise while in fact he is from the people of Hell.’”

Qur’an 13:27 “Say, ‘God leads whosoever He wills astray.’”

Ishaq:383 “One of the young men’s fathers confronted Muhammad and said, ‘You have robbed my son of his life by your deception and brought great sorrow to me.’”

Qur’an 3:24 “They have been deceived by the lies they have themselves fabricated; their religion has deceived them.”

Ishaq:397 “Then Allah said, ‘It is not for any prophet to deceive.”

Ishaq:442 “By Muhammad’s order we beguiled them.”

Tabari VIII:23 “The Messenger and his Companions continued in the fear and distress that Allah has described in the Qur’an. Then Nu’aym came to the Prophet. ‘I ‘ve become a Muslim, but my tribe does not know of my Islam; so command me whatever you will.’ Muhammad said, ‘Make them abandon each other if you can so that they will leave us; for war is deception.’”

Ishaq:496 “‘By Allah you lie,’ one said to another. ‘Liar yourself!’ ‘You are a disaffected person arguing on behalf of the diseased.”

Bukhari:V4B53N453 “When the Prophet wanted to perform the Umrah, the Quraysh stipulated that he could not preach (Islam). So Ali started writing a treaty. ‘This is what Muhammad, Apostle of Allah, has agreed to.’ The (Meccans) said, ‘If we believed that you were the Apostle of Allah we would have followed you. So write, ‘This is what Muhammad bin Abdallah has agreed to.’ The Apostle could not write, so he asked Ali to erase the expression: ‘Apostle of Allah.’ On that Ali said, ‘I will never erase it.’ Muhammad said, ‘Let me see the paper.’ The Prophet erased the expression with his own hand.”

These quotes were compiled by Craig Winn and are available at www.prophetofdoom.net.


#18

You can go to the website above to see how to interpret the numbers indicating the location of the citation in question. For the Quran, it’s just like the system we use for the Bible. For the Hadith, it’s more complicated.

Anyways, for anyone who didn’t want to read all of those, I just want to highlight one of my favorite examples.

Here, we see just how loving their god is:

Qur’an 5:41 “Whomever Allah wants to deceive you cannot help. Allah does not want them to know the truth because he intends to disgrace them and then torture them.”

Here we see that Allah does not give people free will, allowing them to choose him or forsake him. Instead, he intends for some to be disgraced and tortured. Moreover, he intends to do the disgracing and torture himself.

There is another great verse where Allah says that he will torture men until their skins are worn out, and then he will give them new skin so that he can torture them again.

Can’t you just feel the peace and love! :rolleyes:


#19

#20

Elias, Muslims reject most of the Ibn Ishak and Tabari as non-authentic, as far as i know.


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