Where was Lazarus during the 4 days he was dead?


#1

Where was Lazarus’ spirit during the 4 days he was dead? Was he just plainly “asleep”, or was he in Sheol? Abraham’s Bosom?

This is a question I have been pondering.


#2

It is my understanding that Lazarus was neither in heaven or hell, but somewhere else, which the CC refers to as Purgatory.


#3

The Jews believed that the soul lingered around the body for three days after death, not fully at terms with it’s death. After that, corruption would set in and the soul would get the message and go to Sheol. This is probably one of the reasons that Jesus waited four days before he came to Lazarus’ tomb-- so there would be no doubt that Lazarus was indeed dead and that Jesus’ raising of him was totally miraculous.


#4

[quote=dumspirospero] was he in Sheol? Abraham’s Bosom? .
[/quote]

can someone clarify what those two places are? (im still learning, and havent heard those before)


#5

Sheol or Abraham’s Bosom is the Jewish equivalent of Catholic Purgatory, in brief.""The view of purgatory is still more clearly expressed in rabbinical passages, as in the teaching of the Shammaites: “In the last judgment day there shall be three classes of souls: the righteous shall at once be written down for the life everlasting; the wicked, for Gehenna; but those whose virtues and sins counterbalance one another shall go down to Gehenna and float up and down until they rise purified; for of them it is said: ‘I will bring the third part into the fire and refine them as silver is refined, and try them as gold is tried’ [Zech. xiii. 9.]; also, ‘He [the Lord] bringeth down to Sheol and bringeth up again’” (I Sam. ii. 6). The Hillelites seem to have had no purgatory; for they said: “He who is ‘plenteous in mercy’ [Ex. xxxiv. 6.] inclines the balance toward mercy, and consequently the intermediates do not descend into Gehenna” (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 3; R. H. 16b; Bacher, “Ag. Tan.” i. 18). Still they also speak of an intermediate state.Regarding the time which purgatory lasts, the accepted opinion of R. Akiba is twelve months; according to R. Johanan b. Nuri, it is only forty-nine days. Both opinions are based upon Isa. lxvi. 23-24: “From one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another shall all flesh come to worship before Me, and they shall go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched”; the former interpreting the words “from one new moon to another” to signify all the months of a year; the latter interpreting the words “from one Sabbath to another,” in accordance with Lev. xxiii. 15-16, to signify seven weeks. During the twelve months, declares the baraita (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 4-5; R. H. 16b), the souls of the wicked are judged, and after these twelve months are over they are consumed and transformed into ashes under the feet of the righteous (according to Mal. iii. 21 [A. V. iv. 3]), whereas the great seducers and blasphemers are to undergo eternal tortures in Gehenna without cessation (according to Isa. lxvi. 24).The righteous, however, and, according to some, also the sinners among the people of Israel for whom Abraham intercedes because they bear the Abrahamic sign of the covenant are not harmed by the fire of Gehenna even when they are required to pass through the intermediate state of purgatory ('Er. 19b; Ḥag. 27a). History of Purgatory.
The idea of the purging fire through which the soul has to pass is found in the Zend-Avesta (“Bundahis,” xxx. 20): “All men will pass into the melted metal and become pure; to the righteous it will seem as though he walks through warm milk” (comp. Enoch, lii. 6-7, lxvii. 6-7). The Church Fathers developed the idea of the “ignis purgatorius” into a dogma according to which all souls, including those of the righteous who remain unscathed, have to pass the purgatory


#6

[quote=Irene]It is my understanding that Lazarus was neither in heaven or hell, but somewhere else, which the CC refers to as Purgatory.
[/quote]

Allthough I am no expert and really have no idea where Lazarus was, I’m pretty sure he was not in Purgatory.

Purgatory is where the soul goes for purification before entering into the kingdom of Heaven. Since Jesus had not yet redeemed all of humanity by dying for us on the cross, the gates of Heaven were shut (no one could enter). If no one could enter Heaven then no one would be going through the purification process in anticipation of entering Heaven. My bets are on Lazurus being in Sheol.


#7

Since Jesus had not yet redeemed all of humanity by dying for us on the cross, the gates of Heaven were shut (no one could enter).

you’re assuming a space/time reality outside of space and time. in other words, just because Jesus had not ‘yet’ redeemed the world doesn’t mean that ‘the gates of heaven were shut’.

i’d be interested in seeing any biblical or traditional teaching to support your view.


#8

[quote=jeffreedy789]you’re assuming a space/time reality outside of space and time. in other words, just because Jesus had not ‘yet’ redeemed the world doesn’t mean that ‘the gates of heaven were shut’.

i’d be interested in seeing any biblical or traditional teaching to support your view.
[/quote]

Good for you,go ahead and teach the Catholics about space and time as they seem eager to accept whatever exotic notions other than the connection between temporal life and Eternal Life as a gift of God through Jesus.

I know that evil sometimes has a respectable face and can flaunt itself as a human achievement but it is a painful experience to witness so many Catholics accept this particular spacetime devil as their father and all because of a silly mistake made centuries earlier.

Let the Vatican Observatory praise the devil and do his works for that is what Newton’s conception amount to never mind the later spacetime nonsense.Until wiser heads prevail we can only watch the descent of Christianity to an emprical point of view that makes the gnostics look profound.


#9

Lazarus was probably in Limbo, the same place where the rightgeous of the OT were prior to the resurrection of Christ.

Salvation was not possible until the first Easter.

wc


#10

[quote=jeffreedy789]you’re assuming a space/time reality outside of space and time. in other words, just because Jesus had not ‘yet’ redeemed the world doesn’t mean that ‘the gates of heaven were shut’.

i’d be interested in seeing any biblical or traditional teaching to support your view.
[/quote]

Genesis 3:24
John 3:13


#11

heres a theory i have just heard:

what if…no one right now is in heaven or hell… what if everyone is simply dead… and no one goes to heaven or hell till jesus comes back and then they shall be judged.(the raptue) This would explain why Lazarus was not in heaven or hell but simply dead.


#12

Jesus opened the gates of heaven. Our souls can go there now. I think what you are referring to is when our souls are reunited (or not) with our bodies.


#13

First off, we know that we are not ‘just dead’. Consider the following:
CCC#1021
Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ. [Cf. 2 Tim 1:9-10] The New Testament speaks of judgement primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good theif, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the souls—a destiny which can be different for some and for others. [Cf. Lk 16:22; 23:43; Mt 16:26; 2 Cor 5:8; Phil 1:23; Heb 9:27; 12:23.]

#1022
Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgement that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven—through a purification [Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274): DS 857-858; Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304-1306; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820.] or immediately, [Cf. Benedict XII,* Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000-1001; John XXII, Ne super his (1334): DS 990.]—or immediate and everlasting damnation. [Cf. Benedict XII, *Bendictus Deus (1336): DS 1002.]
At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love. [St. John of the Cross, *Diochos 64.]

We also know that Jesus did open the Gates of Heaven, and that all went to Sheol (though some to Paradise, or Abraham’s Bosom) prior to Christ’s descent into Hades (Sheol). (With the exception of a few great saints like Elijah). Take a look at the section in the Catechism on this: usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt2art5.htm#p1. The OT saints were waiting for Christ to open the gates to Heaven. (Scriptural support is cited by the Catechism for this teaching).

Of specific significance (though I encourage to look at the whole section) is:
CCC#633:
Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell”—*Sheol * in Hebrew or Hades in Greek—because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. [Cf. Phil 2:10; Acts 2:24; Rev 1:18; Eph 4:9; Pss 6:6; 88:11-13.] Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”: [Cf. Ps 89:49; 1 Sam 28:19; Ezek 32:17-32; Lk 16:22-26.] “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Saviour in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.” Roman Catechism I, 6, 3.] Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him. [Cf. Council of Rome (745): DS 587; Benedict XII, *Cum dudum (1341): DS 1011; Clement VI, Super quibusdam (1351): DS 1077; Council of Toledo IV (625): DS 485; Mt 27:52-53.]

#634
"The gospel was preached even to the dead. [1 Pet 4:6.] The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfillment. This is the last phase of Jesus’ messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ’s redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.

(continued)


#14

635
Christ went down into the depths of death so that “the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.”[Jn 5:25; cf. Mt 12:40; Rom 10:7; Eph 4:9.] Jesus, “the Author of life,” by dying destroyed “him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage.”[Heb 2:14-15; cf. Acts 3:15.]Henceforth the risen Christ holds “the keys of Death and Hades,” so that “at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth.” [Rev 1:18; Phil 2:10.]

Today a great silence reigns on earth, a great silence and a great stillness. A great silence because the King is asleep. The earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. . . . He has gone to search for Adam, our first father, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him—He who is both their God and the son of Eve. . . . “I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. . . . I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead.”[Ancient Homily for Holy Saturday: PG 43, 440A, 452C: LH, Holy Saturday, OR.]


#15

Exporter wrote

Sheol or Abraham’s Bosom is the Jewish equivalent of Catholic Purgatory,

It is more likely that Lazarus was a temporary resident of the Limbus Patrum - the Limbo of the Fathers which “is the Paradise of Luke xxiii. 43, so called because it was a place of rest and joy, though the joy was imperfect.” (1885 Catholic Dictionary, Addis and Arnold).

This was the place where the justified of old Testament times waited for the Gates of Heaven to be opened following Jesus’ death and descent into those places. It was the place where the good thief would also reside those three days following the Lord’s promise: “This day thou shalt be with Me in Paradise.”


#16

[quote=jax8686]heres a theory i have just heard:

what if…no one right now is in heaven or hell… what if everyone is simply dead… and no one goes to heaven or hell till jesus comes back and then they shall be judged.(the raptue) This would explain why Lazarus was not in heaven or hell but simply dead.
[/quote]

Anything is possible but that would be a real bummer. And it would not explain folks getting visited by apparitions of the dead.
wc


#17

[quote=Sean O L]It is more likely that Lazarus was a temporary resident of the Limbus Patrum - the Limbo of the Fathers which “is the Paradise of Luke xxiii. 43, so called because it was a place of rest and joy, though the joy was imperfect.” (1885 Catholic Dictionary, Addis and Arnold).

This was the place where the justified of old Testament times waited for the Gates of Heaven to be opened following Jesus’ death and descent into those places. It was the place where the good thief would also reside those three days following the Lord’s promise: “This day thou shalt be with Me in Paradise.”
[/quote]

I agree- Limbus Patrum (which is part of Abraham’s Bosom) makes the most sense.

Abraham’s Bosom- Catholic Encyclopedia

But purgatory and Abraham’s Bosom is NOT the same thing. Purgatory discussion revolves around a soul’s “scouring cleansing” of the temporal effects of sin for admittance into heaven. Abraham’s bosom was a place that was not heaven, but it also did not provide a scouring cleansing.

Purgatory- Catholic Encyclopedia

And further:

[quote=Catholic Encyclopedia]In the New Testament, Christ refers by various names and figures to the place or state which Catholic tradition has agreed to call the limbus patrum. In Matt. 8:11, it is spoken of under the figure of a banquet “with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of Heaven” (cf. Luke 8:29; 14:15), and in Matt. 25:10 under the figure of a marriage feast to which the prudent virgins are admitted, while in the parable of Lazarus and Dives it is called “Abraham’s bosom” (Luke 16:22) and in Christ’s words to the penitent thief on Calvary the name paradise is used (Luke 23:43). St. Paul teaches (Eph. 4:9) that before ascending into Heaven Christ “also descended first into the lower parts of the earth,” and St. Peter still more explicitly teaches that “being put to death indeed, in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit,” Christ went and “preached to those souls that were in prison, which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noah” (I Pet 3:18-20).

It is principally on the strength of these Scriptural texts, harmonized with the general doctrine of the Fall and Redemption of mankind, that Catholic tradition has defended the existence of the limbus patrum as a temporary state or place of happiness distinct from Purgatory. As a result of the Fall, Heaven was closed against men. Actual possession of the beatific vision was postponed, even for those already purified from sin, until the Redemption should have been historically completed by Christ’s visible ascendancy into Heaven.
[/quote]

The last sentence indicates that purgatory (or the purification) happened in a separate time/place from Limbus Patrum or Abraham’s Bosom.

Limbo- Catholic Encyclopedia


#18

Here is a crazy thought

Maybe he was just dead. You know like a dog or a cat.

Funny how we invent a place not mentioned in the bible
just so it all fits in our own beliefs

When did this purgatory begin and what is the first mention
Of it in the bible?

Did Adams children believe in it? Did they think they would go to
Heaven or hell when they died?


#19

you’re saying then, a person can go to heaven without a redeemer. I’d be interested in seeing the support for that.


#20

[LIST]
*]The soul is immortal. It doesn’t sleep and it doesn’t die. newadvent.org/cathen/14153a.htm
*]The soul is judged immediately after death of the body…called the particular judgement newadvent.org/cathen/08550a.htm vs the last judgement at the end of the world [FONT=Calibri]newadvent.org/cathen/08552a.htm[/FONT]
*]The rapture is a belief by fundamentalist protestants
[/LIST]


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