Which church contains the "all truth" that Christ promised us?

Christ promised us ALL truth (John 16:13). He gave his church the job of upholding, protecting and defending that truth (1 Tim 3:15). Which church do you believe contains ALL truth as Jesus promised?

Some of you may be tempted to say that it’s simply the church of “all believers” but since conflicting and contradictory doctrine exist in the “all believers” church there is, at best, SOME truth and some error, not ALL truth. ALL truth is what we were promised. Where do you believe it can be found?

In Christ,
Nancy :slight_smile:

I chose other. The only perfect church exists only in the kingdom of heaven. Every church has its flaws. :frowning:

[quote=SPOKENWORD]I chose other. The only perfect church exists only in the kingdom of heaven. Every church has its flaws. :frowning:
[/quote]

I chose “other” too - I don’t see anything in the NT that suggests that any Church has all truth: I do see a promise that the Holy Spirit will guide the disciples into all truth. This implies that God has all truth - it does not the imply that the Church on earth has more than some truth.

We must indeed wait until Heaven to attain all truth, because there alone is the Church perfected. ##

[quote=Gottle of Geer]## I chose “other” too - I don’t see anything in the NT that suggests that any Church has all truth: I do see a promise that the Holy Spirit will guide the disciples into all truth. This implies that God has all truth
[/quote]

If the disciples were promised all truth and they are the foundation on which Christ built his church (Eph 2:19-20) why would the church not then contain all the truth that Christ has revealed?

  • it does not the imply that the Church on earth has more than some truth.

How does the church function in the world today as the upholder, protector and defender of the truth (1 Tim 3:15) without all truth?

In Christ,
Nancy :slight_smile:

[quote=SPOKENWORD]I chose other. The only perfect church exists only in the kingdom of heaven. Every church has its flaws. :frowning:
[/quote]

I agree that every church has it’s flaws, but with truth? Every church has flawed ideas about what is true and what isn’t? Wouldn’t that ultimately make truth unknowable? Yet truth is what sets us free. How can we be set free if we can’t know the truth?

In Christ,
Nancy :slight_smile:

I think the Rastafarians have the “all truth” that Christ promised.

:smiley:

Come on…Jesus wants us to smoke weed :whacky:

[quote=Gottle of Geer]## I chose “other” too - I don’t see anything in the NT that suggests that any Church has all truth: I do see a promise that the Holy Spirit will guide the disciples into all truth. This implies that God has all truth - it does not the imply that the Church on earth has more than some truth.

We must indeed wait until Heaven to attain all truth, because there alone is the Church perfected. ##
[/quote]

Then “Truth” is unknowable in this life – and we can’t even be sure what’s required for us to get to heaven. You’re saying that Christ was incapable of ensuring that the Apostles taught the unadulterated Truth to the Church and that the Church in turn taught the Truth of His revelation down through the centuries – and still teaches the Truth. Or, maybe the Apostles taught the Truth, but it ended there. Only those taught personally by the Apostles knew the truth. We’re outta luck.

Guess I’ll eat some worms. Shoulda stayed an atheist.:stuck_out_tongue:

You’ve gotta get over the false notion that everything Jesus taught is in the NT.

JMJ Jay

I think you should have atleast put the Eastern Orthodox on the thread. They are the only other ones that have a legitimate arguement in my view.

When I was falling away from the Church, I saw that other churches had conflicting beliefs on some of the most important things–like salvation. Later, I heard about how they all went from anti-contaception and divorce to oking it. What credible church changes its fundamental beliefs (what’s in the Bible) to suit mans lower nature (which, I guess, is not unbelievable since “This is my body…” was somehow spun to suit the whim or theology of some reformers)? I can’t believe it when I hear people make the excuses that we all have the same God or that love is all you need. This is sounding like “What is truth?”. The same God gave his apostles the new ministerial priesthood. With their authority, the apostles had it continued begining with Judas’s replacement. Their deciding it was not in the Bible but their binding and loosing was and that’s all that’s necessary as long as Tradition and the Bible are not contradicted and nothing that could not be deduced from the Bible is declared. Protestants accepted the Trinity and the Bible (well, most of it), why not Mary’s Assumption and obedience to the Pope?
Any case, the Church’s unchangingness, despite crooked popes, in its fundamental teachings, whether clerics, theologists, or Catholic school teachers wanted to teach it or not (added to passages from the Bible), could only point to the Church as the 100% correct Church. Saints who didn’t think certain books should be in the Bible or certain dogmas declared bended to the authority of the Papacy bestowed upon it by Jesus at Caesaria Phillipi (sp?).
The things that happened after the Reformation sound like what French revolutionaries and communist rebels a century later did to Church structures and its faithful and what the Boomer generation did to society and culture (that being a good reason not to be of any other kind of Christianity because all those events was the evolution of the modern liberal–the reign of feelings over reason). These churches still split up even though Jesus said not to split and these splits have occured when , by action of leaders of a certain denomination or league of denominations, even the Bible verses become legalistic to suit the zeitgeist or feelings of the leaders of the denomination. Besides, how is the Holy Spirit gonna tell us anything if all these other voices are chattering all kinds of other stuff? We have heretics in our Church who made a mess that went critical in the 60s, but no fundamental teaching ever changed and it never will as it never has.
The Apostles were setting up churches even in the Bible and he went around and made sure that the churches were teaching the same thing. This was the beginning of the visible church–the one that the gates of hell will never prevail again and the Bride of Christ that will be united with the the groom at the end of time both of whom, with all those with the right clothes on, will be at the marriage supper of the Lamb.
We are One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

That’s not all that can be said about that but it’s my 2 cents. BTW some wisdom religions outside Christianity were bourne from good intentions but their historicity does not give them credibility.

[quote=workinprogress]When I was falling away from the Church, I saw that other churches had conflicting beliefs on some of the most important things–like salvation…
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Someone recently claimed, on an anti-Catholic message board, that this idea of conflicting beliefs is a lie made up by the Catholic Church. I thought that was funny. :slight_smile:

In Christ,
Nancy :slight_smile:

If I didn’t believe that The True Church was not "ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC AND APOLISTIC…and currently led by a man in line with an unbroken succession that leads all the way back to St Peter… well, i certainly would not be taking or reading the abuse that happens in these forums… might be giving some too… :thumbsup:

[quote=Gottle of Geer]## I chose “other” too - I don’t see anything in the NT that suggests that any Church has all truth: I do see a promise that the Holy Spirit will guide the disciples into all truth. This implies that God has all truth - it does not the imply that the Church on earth has more than some truth.

We must indeed wait until Heaven to attain all truth, because there alone is the Church perfected. ##
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“The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.” This pretty much says that all Truth is contained in the Church.

Peace be with you.

Those were not the rants of some Traditionalist but Those were the feelings of one drifting away from the Church but finding myself asking who else could I go to?. After I realized the Church does have the authority it has, I went from questioning hard teachings that seemed to come from a corrupted institution to one who looked for ways to defend hard teachings despite the misbehavior of clerics who were not representing the institution created by Christ. I try to be a no-spin zone and I see no spin in the fundamental doctrines of the Church; only in the ideas of dissenters of the far-left and far-right and those of dissenting (from the 1, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Faith) churches. The Church is rooted in Christ and has, as such, has only suffered superficial corruption (though extremely ugly at times) because the gates of hell cannot prevail against it. If an evil pope should be elected that would help the Anti-Christ, it will be one who could not officially change Church teaching but only confuse his flock as to what it is. Satan wants to take over the human side of the Church to sterilize it superficially because it is the biggest threat to him when its muscles are flexed and people are paying positive attention to it and acting thus so (I have to give EWTN a lot of credit in being a reformer saint made of a collective of devout, obedient and true Catholics even if the Tridentine is still the best mass in my opinion).
The funamentalist Protestants, I got to had it to them, are making a thorn in Satan’s side of themselves in recent years and will probably be dealt with accordingly by Satan–just not as severely as what has, what is and what will come to the Church.

I voted Other
*** Note personal opinion** I would be willing to explain further as long as people understand that this is just a personal opinion.

the other is None, and I think that is the saddest “realization” or I should say belief I have come to see. It got lost somewhere, not sure where but somewhere. I think truth is action as much as words and good arguments. In an objective way, how is one objective about such a personal thing as God, if that makes sense. Maybe my view is to much wrapped up in the time, Im totally willing to admit that, maybe I have just been reprobated and thus can not understand because I have hardened my heart for God’s Glory. Which is also beyound me. I hope I never stop feeling the need for God, that blackness is to deep, but as for Truth I think it got lost somewhere.

Good question.

[quote=briand]I voted Other
*** Note personal opinion** I would be willing to explain further as long as people understand that this is just a personal opinion.

the other is None, and I think that is the saddest “realization” or I should say belief I have come to see. It got lost somewhere, not sure where but somewhere. I think truth is action as much as words and good arguments. In an objective way, how is one objective about such a personal thing as God, if that makes sense. Maybe my view is to much wrapped up in the time, Im totally willing to admit that, maybe I have just been reprobated and thus can not understand because I have hardened my heart for God’s Glory. Which is also beyound me. I hope I never stop feeling the need for God, that blackness is to deep, but as for Truth I think it got lost somewhere.

Good question.
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Hi Briand!! :wave:

Maybe it will help you to realize that ultimately Truth is a person, Jesus Christ, God , who cannot get lost because he is everywhere and everything. Any ideas that are truth have their root in Jesus Christ who is Truth itself. Absolute truth exists and is available to all who seek it. Praise God!!! :slight_smile:

In Christ,
Nancy :slight_smile:

[quote=SPOKENWORD]I chose other. The only perfect church exists only in the kingdom of heaven. Every church has its flaws. :frowning:
[/quote]

Agreed:D

[quote=Catholic4aReasn]Christ promised us ALL truth (John 16:13). He gave his church the job of upholding, protecting and defending that truth (1 Tim 3:15). Which church do you believe contains ALL truth as Jesus promised?

Some of you may be tempted to say that it’s simply the church of “all believers” but since conflicting and contradictory doctrine exist in the “all believers” church there is, at best, SOME truth and some error, not ALL truth. ALL truth is what we were promised. Where do you believe it can be found?

In Christ,
Nancy :slight_smile:
[/quote]

Let’s look at your proof texts closer first:

John 16:13

  1. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
  2. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
  3. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

When you get the verse before and the verse after, it helps to decipher the middle verse. Notice that Christ said He had many things to say, but the disciples weren’t able to handle it. The Spirit of truth would come and **guide them **into all truth.

The conclusion of this lies in the latter part of 13 and through 14. What is the “all truth” that the Spirit of truth will show them?
He (the Spirit of truth) will not speak about Himself, whatever he hears (from Christ) will be what he speaks. And notice especially what follows: He will show you (the disciples) things to come. He will glorify Christ.

Now the question for us is: Has the Holy Spirit shown us things to come and glorified Christ? Are those things found in Scripture? Are those things found only in the Catholic Church?

The Holy Spirit has shown us things to come (Revelation) and has glorified Christ by speaking through the Scriptures about Christ and His death and resurrection. He has done these things. It is now the Church’s job to go out into all the world armed with that knowledge and faith to share with all people the message of Jesus Christ and Him crucified (as Paul said, “I preach Christ and Him crucified”)

We will look at your other proof text in a concluding post.

[quote=ahimsaman72]Let’s look at your proof texts closer first:

John 16:13

  1. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
  2. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
  3. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

When you get the verse before and the verse after, it helps to decipher the middle verse. Notice that Christ said He had many things to say, but the disciples weren’t able to handle it. The Spirit of truth would come and **guide them **into all truth.

The conclusion of this lies in the latter part of 13 and through 14. What is the “all truth” that the Spirit of truth will show them?
He (the Spirit of truth) will not speak about Himself, whatever he hears (from Christ) will be what he speaks. And notice especially what follows: He will show you (the disciples) things to come. He will glorify Christ.

Now the question for us is: Has the Holy Spirit shown us things to come and glorified Christ? Are those things found in Scripture? Are those things found only in the Catholic Church?

The Holy Spirit has shown us things to come (Revelation) and has glorified Christ by speaking through the Scriptures about Christ and His death and resurrection. He has done these things. It is now the Church’s job to go out into all the world armed with that knowledge and faith to share with all people the message of Jesus Christ and Him crucified (as Paul said, “I preach Christ and Him crucified”)

We will look at your other proof text in a concluding post.
[/quote]

Hi ahimsaman72! :wave:

No claim was made that those things can be found only in the Catholic Church. To be sure, some truth exists in all Christian sects. But only one church contains the fullness of truth which, by definition, can contain no error. Which church? That’s the topic of this thread.

Help me understand how your post relates to the topic of this thread. Thanks!

In Christ,
Nancy :slight_smile:

[quote=Catholic4aReasn]Christ promised us ALL truth (John 16:13). He gave his church the job of upholding, protecting and defending that truth (1 Tim 3:15). Which church do you believe contains ALL truth as Jesus promised?

Some of you may be tempted to say that it’s simply the church of “all believers” but since conflicting and contradictory doctrine exist in the “all believers” church there is, at best, SOME truth and some error, not ALL truth. ALL truth is what we were promised. Where do you believe it can be found?

In Christ,
Nancy :slight_smile:
[/quote]

Let’s look at 1 Tim 3:13-16 for a minute:

  1. For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
  2. These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:
  3. But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
  4. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

So, here Paul has just given directions/guidelines to Timothy for the leadership of the local churches. He is writing ahead in the hopes that he can go quickly to them. But, if he has to wait, he wanted them to know how to behave in the “house of God”, which is the “church of the living God”, which is the "pillar and ground of the truth. He finishes by explaining the “mystery of godliness” which is essentially the incarnation of Christ and His resurrection from the dead.

Now, I don’t see here what you claim for this verse, “*He gave his church the job of upholding, protecting and defending that truth (1 Tim 3:15).” *Your quote from above. This passage of Scripture actually identifies all believers as being the Church. Notice house of God = church of God = pillar and ground of truth. The churches that existed when Paul wrote this were numerous. They were located all over the region. They were not Roman Catholic, Baptist or Lutheran. They were simply the original “catholic church”.

Notice that Paul wrote this letter to Timothy whom he had left in Ephesus while he himself had gone on to Macedonia. He wrote this epistle approx 66 or 67 AD.

I Tim 1:3 “As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine”

Since Paul is writing first specifically to Timothy to teach the Ephesians and other churches, we can easily conclude that these churches together (with the believers making up the individual congregations) constitute the house of God (the dwelling place of God), the church of God (one body, many members) which is the pillar (holds up the roof) and ground (again, base or foundation) of truth. That truth is Jesus Christ. The church is to hold Christ up so that the world may know and experience the God-man Jesus Christ.

“All truth” is summed up in Jesus Christ and the gospel of Jesus Christ. Doctrines outside of the gospel are simply that - doctrines, not necessarily to be considered as “truth”. There is a difference.

[quote=Catholic4aReasn]Hi ahimsaman72! :wave:

No claim was made that those things can be found only in the Catholic Church. To be sure, some truth exists in all Christian sects. But only one church contains the fullness of truth which, by definition, can contain no error. Which church? That’s the topic of this thread.

Help me understand how your post relates to the topic of this thread. Thanks!

In Christ,
Nancy :slight_smile:
[/quote]

Hello Nancy!!! :tiphat:

Always good to see you.

My purpose in the post was first: to look at the Scripture to see what it says, rather than taking it to mean whatever I want it to say. And I also wanted to show that the “all truth” you mentioned in your original post is not to be equated with “all doctrines are found in “this” church without error.”

I spoke at length about the fact that the “all truth” that the Holy Spirit was to guide the disciples into “all truth” which by definition is “whatever the Holy Spirit testifies about me” and that essentially, the “work” of the Holy Spirit in guiding them would glorify Christ.

In other words, Christ is not saying that everything in the universe will be shown to them. Even if the disciples (and us) were shown “all things” we would not be able to take it all in. Christ is not saying, “you will know all about science and every detail of the universe I have made - how it works, etc.” They weren’t even able to comprehend (at first) the fact that Jesus would die and be raised from the dead. Christ would speak through the Holy Spirit to teach them essential truths about Himself.

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