Which of Luthers 95 theses


#1

do you disagree with?


#2

Do you have a link to them?


#3

iclnet.org/pub/resources/ text/wittenberg/luther/web/ninetyfive.html


#4

Luther showed a complete misunderstanding of indulgences in his 95 theses. I mean, I’m sure there were priests out there telling people that indulgences could get them into heaven, but that wasnt a teaching of the church. Had luther bothered to do a little research…


#5

[quote=Rand Al’Thor]Luther showed a complete misunderstanding of indulgences in his 95 theses. I mean, I’m sure there were priests out there telling people that indulgences could get them into heaven, but that wasnt a teaching of the church. Had luther bothered to do a little research…
[/quote]

If Luther had a misunderstanding, how much more an average lay person?


#6

[quote=Xavier]If Luther had a misunderstanding, how much more an average lay person?
[/quote]

Irrelevent…
The NT authority to absolve sins in John 20 and to bind and loose is quite clear.

on Luther:
newadvent.org/cathen/09438b.htm

From the link above:
On 31 October, 1517, the vigil of All Saints’, Luther affixed to the castle church door, which served as the “black-board” of the university, on which all notices of disputations and high academic functions were displayed, his Ninety-five Theses. The act was not an open declaration of war, but simply an academic challenge to a disputation. “Such disputations were regarded in the universities of the Middle Ages partly as a recognized means of defining and elucidating truth, partly as a kind of mental gymnastic apt to train and quicken the faculties of the disputants. It was not understood that a man was always ready to adopt in sober earnest propositions which he was willing to defend in the academic arena; and in like manner a rising disputant might attack orthodox positions, without endangering his reputation for orthodoxy” (Beard, op. cit.). The same day he sent a copy of the Theses with an explanatory letter to the archbishop. The latter in turn submitted them to his councillors at Aschaffenburg and to the professors of the University of Mainz. The councillors were of the unanimous opinion that they were of an heretical character, and that proceedings against the Wittenberg Augustinian should be taken. This report, with a copy of the Theses, was then transmitted to the pope. It will thus be seen that the first judicial procedure against Luther did not emanate from Tetzel. His weapons were to be literary.

Tetzel, more readily than some of the contemporary brilliant theologians, divined the revolutionary import of the Theses, which while ostensibly aimed at the abuse of indulgences, were a covert attack on the whole penitential system of the Church and struck at the very root of ecclesiastical authority. Luther’s Theses impress the reader “as thrown together somewhat in haste”, rather than showing “carefully digested thought, and delicate theological intention”; they “bear him one moment into the audacity of rebellion and then carry him back to the obedience of conformity” (Beard, 218, 219). Tetzel’s anti-theses were maintained partly in a disputation for the doctorate at Frankfort-on-the-Oder (20 Jan., 1518), and issued with others in am unnumbered list, and are commonly known as the One Hundred and Six Theses. They, however, did not have Tetzel for their author, but were promptly and rightfully attributed to Conrad Wimpina, his teacher at Leipzig. That this fact argues no ignorance of theology or unfamiliarity with Latin on the part of Tetzel, as has been generally assumed, is frankly admitted by Protestant writers. It was simply a legitimate custom pursued in academic circles, as we know from Melancthon himself.


#7

[quote=Church Militant]Irrelevent…
The NT authority to absolve sins in John 20 and to bind and loose is quite clear.

on Luther:
newadvent.org/cathen/09438b.htm

From the link above:
On 31 October, 1517, the vigil of All Saints’, Luther affixed to the castle church door, which served as the “black-board” of the university, on which all notices of disputations and high academic functions were displayed, his Ninety-five Theses. The act was not an open declaration of war, but simply an academic challenge to a disputation. “Such disputations were regarded in the universities of the Middle Ages partly as a recognized means of defining and elucidating truth, partly as a kind of mental gymnastic apt to train and quicken the faculties of the disputants. It was not understood that a man was always ready to adopt in sober earnest propositions which he was willing to defend in the academic arena; and in like manner a rising disputant might attack orthodox positions, without endangering his reputation for orthodoxy” (Beard, op. cit.). The same day he sent a copy of the Theses with an explanatory letter to the archbishop. The latter in turn submitted them to his councillors at Aschaffenburg and to the professors of the University of Mainz. The councillors were of the unanimous opinion that they were of an heretical character, and that proceedings against the Wittenberg Augustinian should be taken. This report, with a copy of the Theses, was then transmitted to the pope. It will thus be seen that the first judicial procedure against Luther did not emanate from Tetzel. His weapons were to be literary.

Tetzel, more readily than some of the contemporary brilliant theologians, divined the revolutionary import of the Theses, which while ostensibly aimed at the abuse of indulgences, were a covert attack on the whole penitential system of the Church and struck at the very root of ecclesiastical authority. Luther’s Theses impress the reader “as thrown together somewhat in haste”, rather than showing “carefully digested thought, and delicate theological intention”; they “bear him one moment into the audacity of rebellion and then carry him back to the obedience of conformity” (Beard, 218, 219). Tetzel’s anti-theses were maintained partly in a disputation for the doctorate at Frankfort-on-the-Oder (20 Jan., 1518), and issued with others in am unnumbered list, and are commonly known as the One Hundred and Six Theses. They, however, did not have Tetzel for their author, but were promptly and rightfully attributed to Conrad Wimpina, his teacher at Leipzig. That this fact argues no ignorance of theology or unfamiliarity with Latin on the part of Tetzel, as has been generally assumed, is frankly admitted by Protestant writers. It was simply a legitimate custom pursued in academic circles, as we know from Melancthon himself.
[/quote]

Which of the 95 do you disagree with?


#8

I’ll start with # “1. Our Lord and Master Jesus Christ, when He said Poenitentiam agite, willed that the whole life of believers should be repentance.”

This is patently an error since it implies that one can never be free of sin and shows Luther’s own neurotic scrupulosity. :slight_smile:

BTW your link still doesn’t work


#9

You are wrong Xavier and you continue to divide Christ’s body:tsktsk: Shame:mad:


#10

[quote=Lisa4Catholics]You are wrong Xavier and you continue to divide Christ’s body:tsktsk: Shame:mad:
[/quote]

Which do you disagree with?


#11

[quote=Xavier]If Luther had a misunderstanding, how much more an average lay person?
[/quote]

How much more the average Protestant?

Jesus founded a Church not a book. He commanded us to be loyal, to remain of one body and one mind.

Jesus founded His body, His Catholic Church to correct the errors of the lay people and ignorent and/or missguided clergy like Luther (and the Protestants too;) ).

Follow the Faith, Morals and Dogma of His Cathlic Church like Jesus wanted. Don’t just focus on one man, one heritic.

Luther prayed the rosary till he died. He believed Jesus had no siblings. He believed Blessesd Mary ever virgin. Why do Protestants pick and choose they want to believe? Why focus on the 95 Thesis? If you claim to follow Luther why have the Lutherans failed to follow him? Why do they change away from what he taught? Why are there several Lutheran branches?

So why do you support His 95 Thesis? Post them here one by one and support them with your proof. You brought up the question so please support it so that we can respond in kind.

God bless, glad to see you still posting here!:thumbsup:


#12

iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/web/ninetyfive.html


#13

[quote=Lisa4Catholics]You are wrong Xavier and you continue to divide Christ’s body:tsktsk: Shame:mad:
[/quote]

How so?


#14

[quote=Malachi4U]How much more the average Protestant?

Jesus founded a Church not a book. He commanded us to be loyal, to remain of one body and one mind.

Jesus founded His body, His Catholic Church to correct the errors of the lay people and ignorent and/or missguided clergy like Luther (and the Protestants too;) ).

Follow the Faith, Morals and Dogma of His Cathlic Church like Jesus wanted. Don’t just focus on one man, one heritic.

Luther prayed the rosary till he died. He believed Jesus had no siblings. He believed Blessesd Mary ever virgin. Why do Protestants pick and choose they want to believe? Why focus on the 95 Thesis? If you claim to follow Luther why have the Lutherans failed to follow him? Why do they change away from what he taught? Why are there several Lutheran branches?

So why do you support His 95 Thesis? Post them here one by one and support them with your proof. You brought up the question so please support it so that we can respond in kind.

God bless, glad to see you still posting here!:thumbsup:
[/quote]

Please stay on subject


#15

These three are about as bad as the first
"2. This word cannot be understood to mean sacramental penance, i.e., confession and satisfaction, which is administered by the priests.

(He should’ve said IMO)

  1. Yet it means not inward repentance only; nay, there is no inward repentance which does not outwardly work divers mortifications of the flesh.

If you agree with this Xavier then I assume that you practice similar penances for your sins? A VERY catholic concept.

  1. The penalty [of sin], therefore, continues so long as hatred of self continues; for this is the true inward repentance, and continues until our entrance into the kingdom of heaven."

The whole concept of “self-hatred” is unscriptural since Christ tells us to love others as we love ourselves. One cannot love others as God wants us to if one maintains hatred for oneself. I find it difficult to see how anyone thinks this guys is a rational and unbiased theologian.

What? No answers?


#16

[quote=Xavier]Which do you disagree with?
[/quote]

Xavier I disagree with your attempt to further divide the Church:mad: Jesus picked Judas and Judas and his actions did not divide the Church and neither should certain rogue priests who sold indulgences:nope: St.Francis of Assissi worked from within the Church for reform,Martin Luther divided the Church and it keeps dividing:nope:


#17

[quote=Lisa4Catholics]Xavier I disagree with your attempt to further divide the Church:mad: Jesus picked Judas and Judas and his actions did not divide the Church and neither should certain rogue priests who sold indulgences:nope: St.Francis of Assissi worked from within the Church for reform,Martin Luther divided the Church and it keeps dividing:nope:
[/quote]

But it was the hierarchy of the church which divided the true gospel from its teachings yet you do not hold them accountable. If it was only a rougue priest or three we would not be having this discussion. The whole of the institution was corrupt.


#18

I like this one:

  1. Every truly repentant Christian has a right to full remission of penalty and guilt, even without letters of pardon.

But I liked most of them.

Peace


#19

[quote=Xavier]But it was the hierarchy of the church which divided the true gospel from its teachings yet you do not hold them accountable. If it was only a rougue priest or three we would not be having this discussion. The whole of the institution was corrupt.
[/quote]

How many of the Apostles were standing at the foot of the Cross Xavier?:mad: How many?Judas was a member of the hierarchy was he not?:nope: Jesus set up the hierarchy so your problem is with Jesus not His Church:nope:


#20

[quote=Xavier]But it was the hierarchy of the church which divided the true gospel from its teachings yet you do not hold them accountable. If it was only a rougue priest or three we would not be having this discussion. The whole of the institution was corrupt.
[/quote]

Suggest that you follow your own advice and stay on topic. You have not answered any of the posts concerning the theses and yet use this thread as a platform to allege untruths concerning the church. You are nuts if you think that the Catholic Church erred in teaching Christian truth and you have yet in any of your posts EVER to validly substantiate your rhetoric with any sort of real unbiased historical proof. Either get busy with the proofs or find some other forum to pester.


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