Which one: Catholicism and Orthodoxy?


#1

I'm not too informed on the matter but as far as I know both church's do have apostolic succession and are able to trace their roots all the way back to the apostles. I also know that the main difference between the two is that we Catholics believe in the papacy while the Orthodox believe in equality among all bishops or something. Still, one church had to break off from the other in 1054. My question is, how do we know which Church is the original?


#2

[quote="Poof, post:1, topic:261659"]
I'm not too informed on the matter but as far as I know both church's do have apostolic succession and are able to trace their roots all the way back to the apostles. I also know that the main difference between the two is that we Catholics believe in the papacy while the Orthodox believe in equality among all bishops or something. Still, one church had to break off from the other in 1054. My question is, how do we know which Church is the original?

[/quote]

grabs a seat in the front row

I'm watching this thread because the same question has been on my mind for some months now.


#3

[quote="Trebor135, post:2, topic:261659"]
grabs a seat in the front row

I'm watching this thread because the same question has been on my mind for some months now.

[/quote]

Right...because the OP's questions will obviously be answered differently depending on who replies.

Poof, Latin/Roman Catholics believe they are the True Church, and that the Orthodox Catholics broke away. And the Orthodox Catholics believe they are the True Church, and that the Roman/Latin Catholics broke away by leaning from orthodoxy and making changes that the Orthodox Catholics don't believe should have been made (i.e. the addition of the Filioque in the Creed for example, or the Pope's position in the Latin Church).


#4

:popcorn:
Waiting for more posts.


#5

[quote="Rence, post:3, topic:261659"]
Right...because the OP's questions will obviously be answered differently depending on who replies.

Poof, Latin/Roman Catholics believe they are the True Church, and that the Orthodox Catholics broke away. And the Orthodox Catholics believe they are the True Church, and that the Roman/Latin Catholics broke away by leaning from orthodoxy and making changes that the Orthodox Catholics don't believe should have been made (i.e. the addition of the Filioque in the Creed for example, or the Pope's position in the Latin Church).

[/quote]

You're confusing terminology. Orthodox Catholic Churches are Catholic (under Papal authority).

They include:

Byzantine Tradition

Melkite Church
Ukrainian Catholic Church
Ruthenian Catholic Church
Romanian Catholic Church
Italo-Albanian Catholic Church

Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church
Belarusian Greek Catholic Church
Bulgarian Greek Catholic Church
Croatian Greek Catholic Church
Greek Byzantine Catholic Church
Hungarian Greek Catholic Church
Macedonian Greek Catholic Church
Russian Catholic Church
Slovak Greek

Antiochian or West Syrian Tradition

Maronite Church
Syriac Catholic Church
Syro-Malankara Catholic Church

*Chaldean or East Syrian Tradition *

Chaldean Church
Syro-Malabar Catholic Church

*Armenian Tradition *

Armenian Catholic Church

Alexandrian Tradition

Coptic Catholic Church
Ethiopian Catholic Church


#6

Here is a short description straight from this website all about Eastern Orthodoxy and the Great Schism.

I hope this helps, have confidence God will lead you to His Truth.


#7

[quote="Barbkw, post:5, topic:261659"]
You're confusing terminology. Orthodox Catholic Churches are Catholic (under Papal authority).

[/quote]

I've never heard them called "Orthodox" Catholic Churches, but I have heard them called "Eastern" Catholic Churches.


#8

[quote="Poof, post:1, topic:261659"]
I'm not too informed on the matter but as far as I know both church's do have apostolic succession and are able to trace their roots all the way back to the apostles. I also know that the main difference between the two is that we Catholics believe in the papacy while the Orthodox believe in equality among all bishops or something. Still, one church had to break off from the other in 1054. My question is, how do we know which Church is the original?

[/quote]

In answer to you specific question....BOTH.

As you state, both have clearly traceable apostolic succession and as a result both have valid sacraments.

The schism is largely one of structure rather than theology although there are some theological issues that have cropped up since the schism occurred.

Trying to pick out who did what to whom and who split from whom is a detail that I personally find rather moot. Of more immediate concern it that we pray for the success of talks between the two communions and that eventually we may be reunified in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church...However the details of structure and governance are worked out is of less import to me.

Peace
James


#9

[quote="Poof, post:1, topic:261659"]
I'm not too informed on the matter but as far as I know both church's do have apostolic succession and are able to trace their roots all the way back to the apostles. I also know that the main difference between the two is that we Catholics believe in the papacy while the Orthodox believe in equality among all bishops or something. Still, one church had to break off from the other in 1054. My question is, how do we know which Church is the original?

[/quote]

Whichever one still has the Original Recipe, is the original Church.


#10

[quote="I_Thirst, post:7, topic:261659"]
I've never heard them called "Orthodox" Catholic Churches, but I have heard them called "Eastern" Catholic Churches.

[/quote]

I've heard them call themselves Eastern Orthodox, and Orthodox Catholic, and Eastern Orthodox Catholic and I don't know the technicalities of those names, but they all seem to be separate from the Roman Catholics for the same reasons, and they don't consider themselves under the authority of the Pope as anything more than a leader among equals. :shrug:


#11

The Eastern Orthodox call themselves "Catholic", as well; even though they are not in communion with the Bishop of Rome.


#12

[quote="I_Thirst, post:7, topic:261659"]
I've never heard them called "Orthodox" Catholic Churches, but I have heard them called "Eastern" Catholic Churches.

[/quote]

Sorry, :blush: I think I'm the one confusing terminology.


#13

[quote="Ahimsa, post:9, topic:261659"]
Whichever one still has the Original Recipe, is the original Church.

[/quote]

This can be a bit tricky in nailing down - just what that original recipe is -
Also given the growth and evolution of the Church in the first millennium (before the Schism), from illegal persecuted church in hiding to legalized and prominent Church of the Roman Empire and Europe, it can be tough figuring out all of the twists and turns...:shrug:

The Mustard seed looks nothing like the Mustard bush.

Peace
James


#14

[quote="JRKH, post:13, topic:261659"]
This can be a bit tricky in nailing down - just what that original recipe is -
Also given the growth and evolution of the Church in the first millennium (before the Schism), from illegal persecuted church in hiding to legalized and prominent Church of the Roman Empire and Europe, it can be tough figuring out all of the twists and turns...:shrug:

The Mustard seed looks nothing like the Mustard bush.

Peace
James

[/quote]

Is it possible that a branch from the mustard bush has been re-planted somewhere else?


#15

[quote="Ahimsa, post:9, topic:261659"]
Whichever one still has the Original Recipe, is the original Church.

[/quote]

"Thou art rock and upon this rock I will found my Church, and the gates of the netherworld will never prevail against it."

You mean that original recipe? I looked into Orthodoxy and liked it, but came to conclude that non-Catholic offerings for how to interpret Matthew 16:18 are really weak. At best. As someone pointed out the Church has changed a lot from the original. But the true Church will still have Peter:)


#16

[quote="Trebor135, post:2, topic:261659"]
grabs a seat in the front row

I'm watching this thread because the same question has been on my mind for some months now.

[/quote]

First, get this book if you haven't already! :D

The Fathers Know Best
amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=the+fathers+know+best&tag=googhydr-20&index=stripbooks&hvadid=9486661049&ref=pd_sl_2eo6kyjfn0_b

Surely, $16.47 is something you can afford to make such an important decision! The book has a whole section on the Church and the Pope, with around 50 pages dedicated to it, filled with quotes from the early church.

One sample quote, for instance is this -

"Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at** Rome** by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere."

Irenaeus of Lyons Against Heresies - Book 3 Chapter 3
newadvent.org/fathers/0103303.htm


#17

Yes this is a hard subject to debate on. They both believe they were the original church. I am here to proof it was the Catholic Church Jesus started.

We all know the Mathew 16:18 verse “And I say to you, you are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.”

That is an important thing because the twp churches have their own different type of leadership. Both believing Peter was first of theirs. To prove Peter was the first Pope of the Catholic Church I have to go to the time in Jerusalem. The church was doing great, fairly small, but converting someone new everyday. Paul was over in Rome. When Paul was teaching to the Romans the Romans would ask more question than any others. Paul said that he knew someone that could answer all their questions because he is a full witness account of Jesus. So Paul wrote to Peter asking him to come to Rome. Peter being of old age at first din’t want to go. After thinking this Peter said that the Holy Ghost spoke to him saying “You must go to Rome to spread the light of Christ.” Peter, being the great apostle that he is, followed the orders given to him by the Holy Ghost and went off to Rome. When there Peter found out that Paul was in jail for spreading Christianity. Peter took Paul’s place and eventually ended up in jail himself. Paul was executed. Peter was at one point freed. Peter and Linus (Linus is Peter’s successor) decided it isn’t safe for the Christians to stay in Rome. So they planned an “exodus” When the emperor heard of this he decided to round u all the Christians and jail them they would be free if Peter turned himself in. By the time Peter heard of this him and a handful of Christians. Jesus then appeared to Peter. Jesus then told Peter to die for his people. Peter agreed. Peter then turned himself in. Peter was sent to be crucified. When Peter was nailed to the cross, he requested to be hung upside down so he won’t be remembered like Jesus. So he was crucified upside down on Vatican Hill.

The complex was partially torn down and filled with earth to provide a foundation for the building of the first St. Peter’s Basilica during the reign of Constantine I in about AD 330. Though many bones have been found at the site of the 2nd-century shrine, as the result of two campaigns of archaeological excavation, Pope Pius XII stated in December 1950 that none could be confirmed to be Saint Peter’s with absolute certainty.However, following the discovery of further bones and an inscription, on June 26, 1968 Pope Paul VI announced that the relics of St. Peter had been identified.

Peter was found in Rome.
there’s a movie of it on this guy’s channel.
Here is the link if you want to watch it:
youtube.com/user/speedy779?feature=mhee#p/u/25/zqU52R1RSoI

Also to prove the Catholic Church i must go back to Mathew 16:18 “And I say to you, you are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.”

The Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. The largest Orthodox Church. is the Russian Orthodox Church. In 1944 the Soviet Union was established in Russia. Being a Communist nation, the Soviet Union was severely Atheist. The Orthodox Church dropped increasingly low in the years of the U.S.S.R. Most member either left or their churches were destroyed. The gates of Hell prevailed against the Russian Orthodox Church. Proving it is not Orthodox.

The Catholic Church was the Church created by Jesus. Peter was executed in Rome. St. Linus succeeded him. Then St. Anacletus succeeded him. Then St. Clement I succeeded him. Then St. Evaristus succeeded him. Then St. Alexander I succeeded him. Then St. Sixtus I, then St. Telesphorus, St. Hyginus, St. Pius I, then St. Anicetus. St. Anicetus was the last Pope to get married after St. Soter said otherwise.

The Papal history proves that the Catholic Church was the true Church that Jesus established in 33 A.D. in Mathew 16:18.

I hope this convinced to stay Catholic.

Take Care and
God Bless.


#18

[quote="Barbkw, post:12, topic:261659"]
Sorry, :blush: I think I'm the one confusing terminology.

[/quote]

Nah, they're just small o orthodox:) So they would be "orthodox in communion with Rome", as opposed to "Orthodox" being a proper name:confused: "Eastern Catholics" is probably the more common usage though.:shrug:


#19

Just to confuse the terminology more, Eastern Catholics occasionally refer to themselves (unofficially) as "Orthodox in Communion with Rome" i.e. their belief and praxis is fully compatible with Eastern (or Oriental) Orthodox, but they are members of one of the 22 sui iuris Eastern Catholic Churches.

The Eastern Orthodox Church refers to herself officially as the Orthodox Catholic Church, this comes from the statement in the Creeds: "I believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church." Catholic means Universal. Another "branch" of Orthodoxy is the Oriental Orthodox communion, which is "non-Chalcedonian" - they reject the Council of Chalcedon and only accept three ecumenical councils. Occupying yet another niche and not in communion with other Orthodox Churches is the Assyrian Church of the East, whose Catholic counterpart is the Chaldean Catholic Church.


#20

[quote="josephback, post:15, topic:261659"]
But the true Church will still have Peter:)

[/quote]

Peter is the key. Jesus himself promised to give him the keys of the kingdom in Matthew 16:19. The keys of the kingdom is a symbol of dynastic authority in Davidic kingdoms. We see this in Isaiah 22:15-25 which uses remarkably identical language to Matthew 16:18-19

Thus says the Lord GOD of hosts, "Come, go to this steward, to Shebna, who is over the household, and say to him: What have you to do here and whom have you here, that you have hewn here a tomb for yourself, you who hew a tomb on the height, and carve a habitation for yourself in the rock? Behold, the LORD will hurl you away violently, O you strong man. He will seize firm hold on you, and whirl you round and round, and throw you like a ball into a wide land; there you shall die, and there shall be your splendid chariots, you shame of your master's house.I will thrust you from your office, and you will be cast down from your station. In that day I will call my servant Eli'akim the son of Hilki'ah, and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah (pope = papa = father! :thumbsup:). And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open. And I will fasten him like a peg in a sure place, and he will become a throne of honor to his father's house. And they will hang on him the whole weight of his father's house, the offspring and issue, every small vessel, from the cups to all the flagons. In that day, says the LORD of hosts, the peg that was fastened in a sure place will give way; and it will be cut down and fall, and the burden that was upon it will be cut off, for the LORD has spoken."

"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.** I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven**."

When Satan wanted to sift all of the apostles, Jesus prayed for Peter alone.

"Simon, Simon, behold Satan has demanded to sift all of you like wheat, but I have prayed that your own faith may not fail; and once you have turned back, you must strengthen your brothers." (Luke 22:31-32)

In fact, the Pope recognizes that his ministry as the successor of Peter is to strengthen his brethren.

"The approval and publication of the Catechism of the Catholic Church represents a service which the Successor of Peter wishes to offer to the Holy Catholic Church, and to all the particular Churches in peace and communion with the Apostolic See: the service, that is, of supporting and confirming the faith of all the Lord Jesus' disciples (cf. Lk 22:32), as well as of strengthening the bonds of unity in the same apostolic faith."


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