Which "Sacrifice" should convicted sinners believe in?


#1

Once a Catholic’s joyous salvation is established, then they can proceed to understand, answer, and accept the following:

Was Jesus sacrificed once and for all?

Or, is He the sacrificial “Victim” continually, again and again (as oft as we sin, or, as oft as we gather) on a daily basis?

Romans 6:8-10. -Paul, the Apostle, to the Church at Rome, First Century A.D.
8 “Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.”

Hebrews 7:22-28. Paul, to the Christian Jews (and us).
22 “…so much more Jesus has become a surety [guarantee] of a better covenant. 23 Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. 24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. 26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.”

In Hebrews, Paul does profoundly (if not prophetically) touch on familiar fallible similarities of Jewish and Catholic priesthoods, as compared to Jesus’ own infallible, unchangeable and non-transferable Priesthood (similar to the order of Melchizedek).
(-Mel was the sole priest in his order.)

Hebrews 9:11-28. Paul.
11 “But Christ came as a High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once and for all, having obtained eternal redemption.”

Hebrews 10:10-25. Paul.
10 “…we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified…18 Now where there is remission of these [sins], there is no longer an offering for sin…”

1 Peter 3:18. Peter - himself!
“For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit…”

“He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, shall He not freely give us all things?” -Romans 8:32. Paul.

In the past tense, yes? -A done deal. (And, of course, all Bible Scriptures should be noted in their context.)


#2

Mark 10:45. Jesus paid the “ransom” in full. (1 Timothy 2:6; Hosea 13:14; Isaiah 52:13-15; Isaiah 53:1-12.)

John 17:4. Jesus prayed to the Father and said, “I have finished the work which You have given Me to do…”

John 19:30. After six hours on the cross: Jesus said, “It is finished.” And…gave up His spirit.”

His Sacrifice “is finished.” The “forgiveness of sins and everlasting life,” are by the merits of Jesus Christ alone.

Luke 22:19. Jesus said, “…do this in remembrance of Me.” (The Memorial Supper to keep, yes? Be worthy. Examine Ourselves. 1 Corinthians 5:7-8. Paul. Conduct at the Lord’s Supper. 1 Corinthians 11:17-34. Paul.)

The Sacrifice of Jesus: is non-denominational. -He did it for you, He did it for them, and He did it for me: us.

Daily, Catholic priests sincerely (but adamantly) claim and pray: that the Sacrifice will be through (and only through) what they are doing. (Now, that’s a denomination.) -When, all the while, the One and only Sacrifice for sins that Jesus Himself ever made: was the very One on the cross, back then, as He prayed to the Father. According to the Bible Scriptures, through that One and most powerful Sacrifice (back then): He made “The Atonement.” And, we can all be grateful that His Sacrifice does not need to be “renewed” or “perpetuated” by other sacrifices. It stands alone, yes? And to this “once for all” historic Sacrifice of His, we may look (back). (John 3:14-21. Hebrews 7:22-28; 9:11-12; 10:10-18. 1 Peter 3:18. Jude 3.)

When we believe and gather in His Name - in remembrance of Him - in the realization (and acknowledgement) of the fact of His “finished” Sacrifice, then we can totally trust in, cling to, and rely on Him always! And, we can now and always gratefully give to God (The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) all of the glory, praise and thanksgiving due, for making “so great a salvation” come true! (Hebrews 2:3. 2 Thessalonians 2:13. 2 Corinthians 6:2. Ephesians 1:3. 1 Peter. Romans 1:16. Romans 10:10. Jude 3. Revelation 19:1.)

Yes, since the stakes are so high (all mankind’s salvation on the line):
Which “Sacrifice” should a convicted sinner believe in?
-His sinless One; or a sincere many?
There appears to be a distinction, a difference. -Yes, even a choice: a decision to make.
-Shall we trust in what God Himself has painstakingly established through His precious Son: Jesus Christ? Or, shall we trust in what The Church has sincerely (but rather mistakenly) established through her dogmas and decrees?
-In any event: Which event should we believe in, and rely on?
His “finished” Event?
Or, another event: the next Mass?


#3

We don’t sacrifice Jesus at our Masses… We partake in his sacrifice and remember his one True Sacrifice and yes the Event is finished, but should we forget? No we should continuely partake in his One sacrifice so that we do not Forget.


#4

Can you succinctly tell us what you *THINK *the Church teaches about Christ’s sacrifice and the Eucharist? Please be conscise.

M


#5

John 19:30. After six hours on the cross: Jesus said, “It is finished.” And…gave up His spirit.”

His Sacrifice “is finished.” The “forgiveness of sins and everlasting life,” are by the merits of Jesus Christ alone.

But Paul says “He was raised for our Justification”
“It is finished” speaks of the Passover sacrifice. And…
Paul says in 1 Corinthians 5:7-8
"Christ our Passover lamb has been sacrificed, therefore"??? we don’t need to have any more sacrifice? Therefore we don’t need any more ritual, therefore all we have to do is have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and invite him into our hearts and everything else is taken care of?
No, he’s to knowledgeable about the old testament to say any of that. He says," Christ our Passover lamb has been sacrificed: let us therefore celebrate the feast." What feast? The whole Passover feast. It’s not complete yet.
Go back to Exodus. Suppose that night as head of the household and father, I sacrificed an unblemished lamb, with no broken bones, and then sprinkled the blood on the doorpost. And then told my family, “OK we’re safe let’s go to bed” , and we went to bed. I’d wake up in the morning to find my first born son dead. Why? You had to eat the lamb. It wasn’t enough just to kill him. That is the satisfaction for sin.
zuserver2.star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m4/4cp.html


#6

If we believe that Jesus was sacrificed once and for all, are we going to be subject to any of the anathemas of the Council of Trent?

I thought I read it one time, something to the effect:
Whoever denies that the sacrifice of the Mass is not a true sacrifice for sins, let him be anathema…

And, this is the question, is it not?


#7

I know the RCC teaches that it is the actual body and blood of our Savior. (Under the apperance of bread and wine.)
But, no matter how often we eat the Lamb, our bodies will die.
And, say that if you were to die somehow - right after Mass - what happens to the body and blood of Jesus (in you) ?

And, as claimed: that it is His actual flesh and blood under the apperance of the bread and the wine, what will it be under the apperance of, say, in 24 hours?

So, we frequently need to actually eat Jesus?
Are you sure that eating His flesh and drinking His blood IS to be taken literally? and not figuratively? (metaphorically?)

I know that in the future resurrection, His saved children will have perfect redeemed bodies, etc., that will never taste death, pain or sorrow again. Glory be.


#8

Jesus is: The Bread of Life; The Good Shepherd; The Light of the World; The Way, The Truth, and The Life; The Vine; The Door; The Rock; The Chief Cornerstone; The Lamb of God - Who takes away the sins of the world; The Lion of the Tribe of Judah, (Etc.).

But, is He all of these literally, or, metaphorically (figuratively)?

We can be His sheep. (I believe, figuratively.) -The Good Shepherd wants to feed His flock, yes? (Figurative language, yes?)


#9

and on who’s authority do you teach?


#10

My brother in Christ, you completely misunderstand our faith. Your assumption is 100% incorrect. Now what? Do you have a desire to learn the truth or not? If so, we can discuss.

God is outside of time, as is the sacrifice Jesus made for us. Mass is a celebration, if you will, of the ONE SACRIFICE. This is not difficult.


#11

It’s simple…Jesus’ sacrifice was one time for all…however, that sacrifice is eternal and that same eternal sacrifice is celebrated at Mass. This explanation in know way goes against any scripture Tah Dah Man or any other can hope give in hopes of derailing the Truth given to the Catholic Church. The only way the “bible literalist” can make sense out of their explanations is to take everything “figuratively.” Good example of an oxymoron as I’ve ever heard


#12

I believe we grieve our Lord when we sin. However your first question says something about this. We do grieve Him, and He responded by sending his Son to be an unblemished sacrifice for our sins.

Consider the words of St. Paul: “The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread.” (RSV 1Cor.10: 16-17)

IMHO, the last sentence is what pulls it all together. There is one bread and one cup of blessing. These are the same bread and cup celebrated today. The Liturgy celebrated last week is the same Liturgy which will be celebrated next week. I can say this for two (2) reasons. First, the church is in continual prayer. There is always a mass being said somewhere. Second, the right to say the mass is ultimately granted by the same Holy Spirit whom Christ sent so we would not be orphaned.

Romans 6:8-10. -Paul, the Apostle, to the Church at Rome, First Century A.D.
8 “Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.”

This is true! :thumbsup:

Hebrews 7:22-28. Paul, to the Christian Jews (and us).
22 “…so much more Jesus has become a surety [guarantee] of a better covenant. 23 Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. 24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. 26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.”

Consider v. 27 of this quote in light of the verse I quoted. The Catholic priest is not going through the process St. Paul is saying the Jewish priests went through. There is only one Sacrifice for our sins. When we attend mass (and more specifically receive Communion). We are taking part in the true Passover which Christ initiated the night before his blood was shed. I’ve thought of it as when we are attending mass we are spiritually in the Upper Room following Christ’s instructions to eat and drink.


#13

This belief comes from pre-biblical (NT) times. Paul believed it. The Eleven believed it. Polycarp-student of the Apostle John, believed it because he was taught that Tradition by John. Polycarp taught this Tradition to his student, Irenaeus, who, in turn, taught it forward. Every generation of Christians following, including Luther, believed it.

My brother, look at it this way from scripture: Jesus spoke in public to the masses in parables. In private, he explained in clear language to the Apostles. At the last supper, he was in private with His Apostles. There, he explained in plain Aramaic - telling them that what they saw only as bread and wine was now something different. It had become, after His blessing, His Body and Blood.

Since even the wind, waves and the dead obeyed Jesus, why should we doubt that the bread and wine obeyed Him and became exactly what He said they now were? This was no parable - it was spoken in private directly to the Apostles. Jesus, being God, had power over the bread and wine (“All power in Heaven and on earth has been given me”). The bread and wine, being matter without spirit, had no power to resist Him, and thus became exactly what He called them.

I know that in the future resurrection, His saved children will have perfect redeemed bodies, etc., that will never taste death, pain or sorrow again. Glory be.

My brother, in this, you have just spoken of the hope of mankind.

May Christ’s peace be always with you.


#14

One sacrifice, once for all, made present and in which we participate in every Catholic Mass throughout the world, throughout history, one saving event, the Paschal Mystery, Last Supper through Passion, death, Resurrection, and Ascension to glory, and through which all are saved, whether or not they know it, through the grace and merits of Christ in this saving action. Christ is God, not bound by time, the Mass IS participation in his salvific action, through his sacramental grace.


#15

All you need to do is look at John 6 to answer this question. The disciples whom He was addressing knew He was speaking literally and many of them walked away because of it. Did He stop them and explain that He was only talking figuratively? No, He absolutely did not. He let them leave in their unbelief and then asked the apostles if they were going to leave Him too. Of course, Peter asnwered correctly…v 69-“Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.”

As for the OP, you have a complete misunderstanding of Catholic teaching on what the sacrifice of the Mass means. To us finite humans who are stuck in time it might seem as if we are sacrificing Him over and over, but that is simply not how it is. Christ is outside of time and as such not limited by time in any way. At Mass we are mysteriously taken to Calvary and experiencing the one sacrifice, not making another sacrifice at every Mass.
You might read Scott Hahn’s book The Lamb’s Supper for a deeper look into the Mass.


#16

This reply seems just as appropriate in this trhead:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tah Dah Man forums.catholic.com/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif

*John 19:30. After six hours on the cross: Jesus said, “It is finished.” And…gave up His spirit.” *

His Sacrifice “is finished.” The “forgiveness of sins and everlasting life,” are by the merits of Jesus Christ alone.

It is finished, look at how not using the best translation can distort things so much. It is consumated which is the best translation of what our Lord said would not lead to so much confusion. Yes, Christ’s sacrafice was completed but He was refering to so much more in his statement as others wiser than myself will attest:

St. John Chysostom [347-407 AD] Homilies on the Gospel of St. Matthew Homily 87

And they gave Him gall to drink, and this to insult Him, but He would not. But another saith, that having tasted it, He said, “It is finished?” The prophecy was fullfilled concerning Him. “For they gave me” it is said, “gall for my meat, and for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.” But neither doth that evangelist indicate that he drank, for merely to taste differs not from not drinking, but hath one and the same signification.

St. Augustine of Hippo [354-430] Tractates on the Gospel of John Tractate 47 (John 10:14-21)

To lay down one’s soul then, is to die. As also the Apostle Peter said to the Lord: “I will lay down my life [soul] for Thy sake;” that is, I will die for thy sake. View it then as referable to the flesh: the flesh layeth down its life, and the flesh take it again; not, indeed, the flesh by its own power, but by the power that Him that inhabiteth it. The flesh, then, layeth down its life by expiring. Look at the Lord Himself on the cross: He said, “I thirst:” those who were present dipped a sponge in vinegar, fastened it to a reed, and applied it to His mouth; then, having received it, He said, “It is finished;” meaning, All is fulfilled which had been prophesied regarding me as, prior to my death, still in the future.

St. Augustine of Hippo, [354-430 AD] Tractates on the Gospel of John Tractate 119 (John 19:24-30)

He then adds: “After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. Now there was set a vessel full of viegar: and they filled a sponge with vinegar, and fixed it upon hyssop, and put it to His mouth. When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, He said, It is finished: and He bowed His head, and gave up the ghost.” Who has the power of so adjusting what he does, as this Man of arranging all that He suffered? But this Man was the Mediator between God and men; the Man of whom we read in prophecy, He is man also, and who shall acknowledge Him? for the men who did such things acknowledged not this man as God. For He who is manifest as man, was hid as God: He who was manifest suffered all these things, and He Himself also, who was hid, arraranged them all.

A wicked people did such things, a compassionate Christ suffered them. They who did them, knew not what they did; but He who suffered, not only knew what was done, and why it was so, but also wrought what was good through those who were doing what was evil. 6. “When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, He said, It is finished.” What, but all that prophecy had foretold so long before? And then, because nothing now remained that still required to be done before He died, as if He, who had power to lay down His life and to take it up again, had at length completed all for whose completion He was waiting, “He bowed His head, and gave up the ghost.”



#17

and

Pope Leo the Great [395-461 AD] Sermons sermon 55

IV. When the last act in the tragedy was over how must the Jews have felt? And then, having now tatsed the vinegar, the produce of that vineyard which had degenerated in spite of its Divine Planter, and had turned to the suorness of a foreign vine, the Lord says, “it is finished;” that is, the scriptures are fulfilled: ther is no more for Me to abide from the fury of the raging people: I have endured all that I foretold I should suffer. The mysteries of the weakness are completed, let the proofs of power be produced. And so He bowed His head and yielded up His Spirit and gave that Body, Which sould be raised again on the third day, the rest of peaceful slumber. And when the Author of life was under going this mysterious phase, and at so great a condescension of GOD’S Majesty, the foundations of thr whole world were shaken, when all creation condemned their wicked crime by its upheaval, and the very elements of the world delivered a plain verdictagainst the criminals, what thoughts, what heart-seachings had ye, O Jews, when the judgement of the universe went against you, and your wickedness could not be recalled, the crime having been done? what confusion covered you? what torment seized your hearts? V. Chastity and charity are the two things needful in preparing for Easter Com-munion. Seeing therefore, dearly-beloved, that GOD’S Mercy is so great, that He has deigned to justify. by faith even many from among such a nation, and had adopted into the company of the patriarchs and into the number of the chosen people us who were once perishing in the deep darkness of our own ignorance, let us mount to the summit of our hopes not sluggishlynor in sloth; but prudently and faithfully reflecting fromwhat captivity and from how miserable a bondage, with what ransom we were purchased, by how strong an arm led out, let us glorify GOD in our body: that we may show him dwelling in us, even by the uprightness of our manner of life: And because no virtues are worthieror more excellent than merciful loving-kindness and unblemished chastity, let us more especially equip ourselves with these weapons, so that, raised from the earth, as it were on the twowings of active charity and shining purity,we may win a place in heaven. and whosoever, aided by GOD’S grace,is filled with this desireand glories not in himself, but in the LORD, over his progress, pays due honor to the Easter mystery. His threshold the angel of destructiondoes not cross, for it is marked with the Lamb’s blood and the sign of the cross. he fears not the plagues of Egypt, and leaves his foes overwelmed by the same waters by which he himself was saved. And so dearly-beloved, with minds and bodies purified let us embracethe wonderous mystery of our salvation, and, cleansed from all “the leaven of our wickedness, let us keep” the LORD’S Passover with due observance: so that the Holy Spirit guiding us, we may bring peace by His blood to all things, has returned to the loftiness of the Father’s glory, and yet not forsakenthe lowliness of those who serve Him to whom is the honour and the glory for ever and ever. Amen

St. Thomas Aquines [1225-1274 AD] Summa Theologica OF THE DURATION OF THE CEREMONIAL PRECEPTS

Reply to Objection 2: The mystery of the redemption of the human race was fulfilled in Christ’s Passion: hence our Lord said then: “It is consumated” (Jn. 19:30). Consequently the presciptions of the law must have ceased thenaltogether through their reality being fulfilled. As a sign of this, we read that at the Passion of Christ “the veil of the temple was rent” (Mat. 27:51). Hence, before Christ’s Passion, while Christ was preaching and working miracles, the law and the Gospel were concurrent, since the mystery of Christ had already begun, but was not as yet consumated. And for this reason Our Lord, before His Passion, commanded the leper to observe the legal ceremonies


#18

Tah Dah Man, you misunderstand Catholic belief. We don’t believe Jesus is sacrificed “over and over.” We believe Jesus made ONE sacrifice which lasts forever.

Jesus is our High Priest forever, right? If He’s our High Priest forever, what’s He sacrificing? Himself, right? But it is only one sacrifice, not many. Jesus is our perpetual High Priest and our perpetual sacrifice. The Mass isn’t some “other” sacrifice, it is the same sacrifice Jesus made on the cross. One single sacrifice which lasts forever. “For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified,” Hebrews 10:14.

Yes, Jesus said “IT is finished.” What was “IT?” His love? No! His forgiveness? No! His Gospel message? No! His willingness to clease us of sin? No! None of those things were finished. His pain and suffering is what had finished. Jesus does not suffer in the Mass, but he remains our perpetual sacrifice. Otherwise we couldn’t be forgiven for sins committed after He died!


#19

6 days later…I’m waiting for a response to this.


#20

I am very sorry to say at this point, further discussion with him amounts only to… :banghead:

Pray for him, that’s all we can do.

Lord God, in Your Infinite Wisdom, send your Holy Spirit upon Tah Dah Man, to reveal the fullness of truth to him. Lord, he loves you but has been grievously mislead. May Your Most Holy Spirit open his heart to Your unchanging truth. I ask this through Jesus Christ, our Lord, Who lives and reigns with You and the Holy Spirit, One God for ever and ever, Amen.


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