Who Changed The Sabbath? God or man?


#1

I am reading a book called Truth Matters Escaping the Labyrinth of Error by Watler J Veith. It is very interesting on how Rome was Pagan and then became Papal. And how the Pope changed the laws (God’s Laws) the Sabbath, and very disturbing infomation concerning Catholic Religon. But he backes it all up by scripture. Are Catholics following a man’s (Pope’s) rules and not God’s? I think that everyone should dig deeper in the Word of God and seek the truth by prayer to God thru Jesus not Mary. I don’t read anywhere in the bible that Mary is our mediator or for that matter any Saint’s who mediates to God. There are documents stating that the Pope has put himself in the place of God that to me is a direct sin against the commandments 1 & 2 in the KJV and where did these other 7 books in the Catholic Bible come from? I think EVERYONE needs to start asking questions and investigate themselves into what we are being told.


#2

It is obvious from your comments that you are quite uneducated in what the Catholic Church teaches and believes. There are lots of tracts or essays on the catholic.com website that can help fill in this dearth of knowledge. Christians started celebrating the liturgy on Sunday when the met for “the breaking of the bread” on the day after the Sabbath at the temple. Sunday, the first day of the week, was the day of Christ’s resurrection which became the day upon which the earliest Christian celebrated Mass or “the breaking of the bread.” No Pope, even Peter ever changed this practice. It started in Jerusalem even before Peter moved to Rome.

What are the credentials of the author of the book you read? He sure must have not researched any reliable history of Christianity and the Church. :thumbsup:


#3

Perhaps you could summarize this for us and start another thread

And how the Pope changed the laws (God’s Laws) the Sabbath, and very disturbing infomation concerning Catholic Religon. But he backes it all up by scripture.

Could you provide the scripture that supports this comment.

Are Catholics following a man’s (Pope’s) rules and not God’s?

What rules do you object to and why?

I think that everyone should dig deeper in the Word of God and seek the truth by prayer to God thru Jesus not Mary. I don’t read anywhere in the bible that Mary is our mediator or for that matter any Saint’s who mediates to God.

Sounds like you do not understand the Catholic Church’s teaching regarding the above. Do you ever ask friends to pray for you?

There are documents stating that the Pope has put himself in the place of God

No - the pope has never put himself in the place of God

that to me is a direct sin against the commandments 1 & 2 in the KJV and where did these other 7 books in the Catholic Bible come from? I think EVERYONE needs to start asking questions and investigate themselves into what we are being told.

You may want to investigate the history of the bible. These 7 books have been included as part of the bible from very early on. The real question is where did you get your bible from?? Who decided what books should be in it. - Why the Catholic church of course.


#4

How on earth is a Sunday Sabbath unscriptural when Paul himself refers several times to meetings among the early Christians on Sundays but never on Saturday - he is only recorded as preaching in or attending JEWISH synagogues on the Saturdays, (as he would have had to if he wanted any Jewish converts) but never breaking bread and celebrating the LORD’s day on a Saturday.


#5

I second this.

I recommend the OP have a look at this site and buy the DVD set and WATCH it.

biblepack.com/

At least watch the video there!


#6

About the Sabbath thing:

catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0605btb.asp

bornagain, I’m praying that through reading, prayer, and contemplation, you come into the light of truth in these and other matters.


#7

#8

**All I can say is that I belive that ONLY Jesus can mediate between God and us. The bible I use is a KJV and no where does it state that Mary or the Saints mediate for us. It does not even talk about her after Jesus’ death.
Here is a link that I found about the book I am reading, amazingdiscoveries.org/the-mark-of-the-beast.htmlI am no Bible scholar just someone seeking the truth. **


#9

Remember what you just said the next time you want someone to pray to God for you. Jesus is your only intercessor, there is no need for anyone else to pray for you.

Think about this. Every Christian denomination can trace their roots all the way to some Holy Man of God with the bible. But it always stops there. The Catholic church can trace its history all the way to Christ himself and the writers of the Bible were part of the Catholic church. I suggest to you that the bible was never intended by its writers to be a comprehensive Christian systematic theology text book. The bible was intended to be interpreted within the tradition of the church And within the context of the people it was written to. Paul himself says in many places that he will address other things in person, or to hold fast to traditions oral and otherwise. There is much Christian truth that isn’t explicitly talked about in the Bible.

Jesus gave us a church “i will build my church” later to be characterized as " the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth."

You may not understand all her teachings up front, but you owe it to yourself to really search them to see why a church with divine origins would teach things the way they do. If you are truly looking for the truth, you will find it in the CC. God Bless


#10

Hi bornagain and welcome to the forums!
There IS but one mediator between man and God and that mediator is Jesus Christ. However, there are many co-mediators. When we as Catholics pray to Mary or another Saint, we are asking her/him to pray for us. Perhaps, in your religion/denomination you too have asked someone to pray for you. Really, the only difference is that the saints are already in the presence of God and the people you might have asked to pray for you are still here on earth. Remember, when Catholics use the word “pray” (as in praying to a saint), it does not mean “worship”.

I certainly can understand wanting to find out what is and isn’t true. However, perhaps you may want to use sources that do not have an agenda. It is rather obvious that Dr. Veith’s view of the Catholic Church is rather slanted. In fact, I just went to his home page and was very saddened to find that much of his entire ministry seems to be promoting anti-Catholicism. So very sad. I would suggest that if you TRULY are seeking the truth, concerning Catholic teaching and beliefs that you read our Catechism for yourself. Also, while you are here, ask questions. Many people here are knowledgeable about the Catholic Church. Can I ask you a question? Are you a Seventh Day Adventists? I ask because of the title of this thread as it relates to Saturday Sabbath as opposed to Sunday worship.

Well, take care bornagain. It was nice meeting you and I hope that you’ll hang around for a while. God bless.


#11

I see the site you reference is an SDA sight. You mention studying with the SDA. Have you become SDA yet?

The following site lists the fundamental beliefs of this church :adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

Please particularly observe #18 which names Ellen White as a prophet. It then lists scripture to support such claim. However the scripture sited never names Ellen as a prophet. Be sure to look at her false prophecies - they are numerous.

Also look at the scripture used to support all the other beliefs because the scriptures sited do not support such. They are taken out of context and interpreted to fit the belief they want.


#12

But he backes it all up by scripture.

I think St. Peter, our first Pope, gave us a valuable teaching in this regard.

2 Peter 3:16-17
In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures. Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability.

M


#13

So do you worship King James? or should I say King James’s work? When did he live 1566-1625, did he create your entire religion?


#14

Bornagain:

I was an SDA for 31 years before converting to Catholicism. Everyday I thank God for delivering me out of SDAism and into the Catholic faith. Do not swallow everything they teach. Their interpretation of Daniel and Revelation is based on half truths and faulty historical interpretation.

Be very careful. Ask yourself why God would wait until 1844 before giving His truth only to the SDAs?

Marsha


#15

Yeah well, Veith also says,

Sunday worship has no Scriptural authority, and rests solely upon tradition.

Protestants have always claimed that the Bible and the Bible alone should be the standard for our religious beliefs. To meet this challenge, the Roman Catholic Church called the Council of Trent in 1545, and proclaimed that tradition stood above Scripture. The archbishop of Reggio, in a speech concerning this issue, maintained that proof for tradition superceding Scriptural authority could be found in the changeover from Sabbath to Sunday.(LINK)
But he’s dead wrong. You can find more than ample evidence in the New Testament of the fact that even then they ceased temple Sabbath worship and celebrated their Eucharist on Sunday.St. Paul says so: Acts 20:7, 1st Corinthians 16:2, and Colossians 2:16-17. St. John says so in Revelation 1:10.

The early believers ceased Sabbath worship as Christians even in the New Testament. It was moved to Sunday because we are not Jews but Christians celebrating the resurrection of Jesus. The Catholic Church defined this, because someone attacked this scriptural practice.

and very disturbing infomation concerning Catholic Religon. But he backes it all up by scripture. Are Catholics following a man’s (Pope’s) rules and not God’s?

I’d say your guy is doing anything but “backing it all up with scripture”.

I think that everyone should dig deeper in the Word of God and seek the truth by prayer to God thru Jesus not Mary.

Gee…seems to me that we Catholics have always been taught that we seek the truth in Christ. Whoever told you that is either mistaken or intentionally lying to you. Either way they are wrong and that should give you reason to question everything that they have told you so far.

I don’t read anywhere in the bible that Mary is our mediator

You must not be reading that Bible very closely then. In John 2 we see the following example of the beginnings of Mary’s intercessory role with her son. [size=][FONT=“Palatino Linotype”]3 And the wine failing, the mother of Jesus saith to him: They have no wine. 4 And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come. 5 His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye. Then also look at her message, the very same one that every aspect of Mary’s life and her apparitions over the centuries has reiterated to the world.

And look here at what the result of her intercession with Our Lord was. 11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee; and manifested his glory, and his disciples believed in him. Our Lord’s very first miracle was at Mary’s behest.

or for that matter any Saint’s who mediates to God.

By being believers and praying for the world we all share in the mediation of Christ just as the Word of God tells us we are supposed to do. It’s even in the very passage of scripture that you allude to. Look here:
1 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: 2 For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus: (1st Timothy 2)

There are documents stating that the Pope has put himself in the place of God that to me is a direct sin against the commandments 1 & 2

By all means produce these alleged documents so I can bring out the context and prove Veith the deceiver that he is.
(Cont’d)[/FONT][/size]


#16

in the KJV and where did these other 7 books in the Catholic Bible come from?

You need to look into the history of the canon. The fact is that the Jews even of Jesus’ day used the Septuagint Greek version of the Old Testament because far more people spoke, read, and understood Greek (because of their conquest of Israel and most of the known world before the Roman Empire came along, Greek was the lingua franca at that time.) Even in Jesus’ day Hebrew was already a largely dead language, much like Latin is today). That is the main reason that the New Testament was written in Greek…and not in Aramaic or Hebrew.

Anyway, the Septuagint had the Deuterocanonical books in it even then and if you look into all the historical writings of the early church you’ll quickly discover that they name those 7 books as part of the canon again and again.

I think EVERYONE needs to start asking questions and investigate themselves into what we are being told.

Oh…here I agree. I did and that is why I am a Catholic. Read my testimony here.


#17

Scripture is useless for Church history, apart from some of the events in some of the churches in some of the first few decades. It’s not meant to be an exhaustive guide to Christian doctrine, history, worship, or anything else. It’s confined to much more important things, things that are fundamental - these others are not quite that important.

Catholicism is not founded on history - again, history is important, but, not as important as that. If every Bible were destroyed, we would still have Christ: He, Alone, is the Foundation of the Church - the Bible is not, nor can it be. And because He is the Only Foundation there can possibly be, His Apostles are also foundations of the Church, in Him, & through Him. The NT says both things - therefore, both are to be taken with the utmost seriousness. If St. Paul in Romans 8.29 to the end of the chapter is right in what he says - & he is - then neither can history, or anything else in creation, separate us from the Love of God in Christ. Faith in Christ is not founded on anything short of Christ - including historical facts.

Are Catholics following a man’s (Pope’s) rules and not God’s?

Are there no Christians in public life in the US ? They have to obey the Constitution, just like any of their fellow-citizens. Tell us how your question does not apply to them also, & we will tell you the answer to the question as it applies to us :slight_smile:

I think that everyone should dig deeper in the Word of God and seek the truth by prayer to God thru Jesus not Mary. I don’t read anywhere in the bible that Mary is our mediator or for that matter any Saint’s who mediates to God.

This is probably best saved for one of the many threads which discuss it already

There are documents stating that the Pope has put himself in the place of God that to me is a direct sin against the commandments 1 & 2 in the KJV

He holds the place of Christ, in a sense - that does not make him Christ. This is as blasphemous as those words of God to Moses: “I will make thee a god to Pharaoh”. St. Peter’s function in the Church is like that of Moses - it is a true authority, & entirely dependent for its rightful exercise on the indivisible authority of Christ, the Eternal Shepherd and Bishop. It is as little a robbery of Christ, as is the work of preaching the Good News - so if the Pope sins by exercising a function proper to Christ, so does every Protestant preacher in creation.

and where did these other 7 books in the Catholic Bible come from? I think EVERYONE needs to start asking questions and investigate themselves into what we are being told.

That is also the subject of many threads :slight_smile:


#18

#19

Jesus changed the Sabbath! according to the book “Jesus of Nazareth.”

Mk 2:27-28 *Then he said to them, “The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. That is why the Son of Man is lord even of the sabbath.” *

Mt 12:4-8 *“Have you not read what David did when he and his companions were hungry, how he went into the house of God and ate the bread of offering, which neither he nor his companions but only the priests could lawfully eat? Or have you not read in the law that on the sabbath the priests serving in the temple violate the sabbath and are innocent? I say to you, something greater than the temple is here. If you knew what this meant, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned these innocent men. For the Son of Man is Lord of the sabbath.” *

Jesus and his disciples may do on the Sabbath what they do because they replace the priests in the Temple’ the holy place has shifted, now being formed by Jesus and his disciples.

Mt 11:25-30 *At that time Jesus said in reply, “I give praise to you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for although you have hidden these things from the wise and the learned you have revealed them to the childlike. Yes, Father, such has been your gracious will. All things have been handed over to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son wishes to reveal him. "Come to me, all you who labor and are burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am meek and humble of heart; and you will find rest for your selves. For my yoke is easy, and my burden light.” *

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, because the He is our Sabbath. He is how we act like God. He does more than interpret Sabbath restrictions. He is the authority. He stands on the mountain, and takes the place of the Torah. He is the word of God in person. (Jn 1:1)

Jesus broke apart the great social function of the Sabbath (Israel’s sacred order) for the sake of the community of his disciples (the Church) The Resurection of Jesus on the first day of the week, or the beginning of creation, became the “Lord’s day.” The essential elements of the Old Testament Sabbath then naturally passed over to the Lord’s day in the context of the table fellowship with Jesus. The Church thus recuperated the social function of the Sabbath as well, in relation to the “Son of Man”

Peace,

Ryan :slight_smile:


#20

the book is twaddle, and worth buying a birdcage for so you can rip out the pages to line the cage.

No one changed the Sabbath, it is still the last day of the week, in English Saturday, in Spanish Sabado etc. Jesus Christ established the Lord’s Day when he rose from the dead on that day, the first day of the week, in English Sunday, in Spanish Domingo and so forth.


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