Who else is sick of people on this board bashing those that prefer the Novus Ordo


#1

It seems to me that there are some on this board that believe unless you attend the TLM your not a true Catholic. Any comment that the Novus Ordo Mass can be beautiful and reverant is quickly brushed aside as almost impossible or extremely rare. The attitude seems to be that of superiority and smugness (at least in my opinion.) Since the question was posed about bashing traditionalist which I guess equates to those who follow the TLM, (although I’ve always considered myself a traditional conservative Catholic) I thought I’d pose the opposite question.


#2

Although a doubting Catholic, I have much respect for many of the Church’s practices. Being only 25, I have only ever attended NO Mass (even in Lourdes and other highly devout European places). If the TLM is so important, why are there so few offered? And surely the Pope would offer TLM in preferance to NO? (I attended a Papl NO Mass as a youngster)

I have never seen a TLM offered, even in the 99% Catholic area where I grew up. In a place of 300,000 people and 5/6 Masses a weekend offered at 15 Catholic Churches, you would think that one of them would be the TLM if it was so important wouldn’t you…

It is less obvious where I live now (there are few Catholics here) but even so, if the TLM was the only valid Mass, surely it would be offered even in the less Catholic places. Food for thought;)


#3

I voted yes, because I am tired of ALL Catholics bashing eachother because they prefer one Mass or the other…look back through all of my post…I have never said the Novus Ordo can’t be beautiful…all I have said is that I have come across several of them which turned my stomach, and I know that is not representative of all of them…on the other hand, I have never been to a TLM in which all of the abuses I listed in other threads took place…I have never acted arrogant, smug, or one condemned someone because they attend the Novus Ordo…in fact, I have mentioned in the past how I like both of them very much…I just prefer the TLM…you see my friend, where your post and my post differ is that I was targeting only people bashing traditionalist…Not people that attend the Novus Ordo…and we have the anti-traditionalists on the other hand, and it seems to be common place amongst the name callers and bashers on this board, they seem to think that just because one attends the TLM they feel superior and have a smug arrogance about them…that is nonsense…like I said in the beginning…I am tired of the attacks against the Novus Ordo and those that prefer it…likewise, I am tired of being attacked because I prefer the TLM…this is absurd…Why are Catholics having a Civil war over Mass preference.

What I don’t like and what I will not be indifferent to is people making a mockery of the Mass…I don’t care what mass it is, whether it be the TLM or the Novus Ordo…and I could be wrong for saying this, but seeing a Mass that looks like a cross between a Circus and Hamlet does not sit well on my stomach and that is the type of stuff that needs to be stopped…

[quote=rayne89]It seems to me that there are some on this board that believe unless you attend the TLM your not a true Catholic. Any comment that the Novus Ordo Mass can be beautiful and reverant is quickly brushed aside as almost impossible or extremely rare. The attitude seems to be that of superiority and smugness (at least in my opinion.) Since the question was posed about bashing traditionalist which I guess equates to those who follow the TLM, (although I’ve always considered myself a traditional conservative Catholic) I thought I’d pose the opposite question.
[/quote]


#4

So I guess what you are saying is that the Eucharist that is offered at the TLM is not important…:confused:

The TLM is just as important as the NO and the Pope said such in Ecclesia Dei.

[quote=teresas1979]Although a doubting Catholic, I have much respect for many of the Church’s practices. Being only 25, I have only ever attended NO Mass (even in Lourdes and other highly devout European places). If the TLM is so important, why are there so few offered? And surely the Pope would offer TLM in preferance to NO? (I attended a Papl NO Mass as a youngster)

I have never seen a TLM offered, even in the 99% Catholic area where I grew up. In a place of 300,000 people and 5/6 Masses a weekend offered at 15 Catholic Churches, you would think that one of them would be the TLM if it was so important wouldn’t you…

It is less obvious where I live now (there are few Catholics here) but even so, if the TLM was the only valid Mass, surely it would be offered even in the less Catholic places. Food for thought;)
[/quote]


#5

I voted “yes” only because the main words in the question were “sick of bashing.” I am sick of bashing from both sides. I consider myself to be an obedient Roman Catholic, but I am also very much a traditionalist, and yes, I do see practices and “innovations” to the Mass that are positively blasphemous – things that were not even dreamed of before the second Vatican Council and the dismissal of the Traditional Latin Mass and the institution of the new one. I am a sympathizer with the traditionalists and I have strong leanings that way, but as an obedient Roman Catholic, I defer to the Holy Church and accept the Mass as it has been approved while I pray for a restoration to sanctity. Before you look on the traditionalists as people who bash those who approve of the Novus Ordo Mass, you have got to be willing to see what they think they are doing: they believe that something truly diabolical is at work from within the very leadership of the Church, and that the very reason the Latin Mass has been forbidden is because it is Holy and right, and that by speaking against it and telling you why they believe what they believe, they are trying to save you from eternal damnation. Now, give that that’s what they believe and that’s how important it is to them, how can you fault them for doing what their conscience demands of them?


#6

Cherub,

I think the same thing as you.


#7

http://us.f808.mail.yahoo.com/ym/ShowLetter/Fr_Val.jpg?viewimg=1&box=Sent&MsgId=1330_56092449_87495_567_527308_0_7618_683797_2757875422&bodyPart=2&filename=Fr_Val.jpg&tnef=&YY=91288&order=down&sort=date&pos=0&view=a&head=b

This is my Novus Ordo Mass.
I think anyone who loves the TLM should have the indult to enjoy it. I have been told on this board I am not a traditionalist because I don’t believe the the TLM is the only way, the “Catholic” way. Until I came to this board I had no idea such rhetoric ws going on.
%between%


#8

%between% All I know is that these threads are making my head hurt.smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_2_49.gif

I will honestly say I’ve never been to a latin mass. But the threads which described ‘abuses’ at the other mass were bad. However I don’t think they are representative of the mass being offered, but of the parish and the priest who allows this to take place. I know that these things would never be allowed at our mass, ever, period. In English or in Latin.

I don’t understand the animosity, I don’t subscribe that one is better than the other. I say whatever brings you to the Catholic Church, within the rules of the CCC are fine by me.


#9

I have learned a bit from reading these posts and also have been made to reflect. As I see it right now there are two attributes of the Masses that cause us to prefer one Mass over the other. ( Yes, I know there are more than two. I will keep it simple)

I am one of those who went to Mass in the 1950s and 1960s when all Masses were said in Latin. It was called the Mass of the Catechumens. The Priest had his back turned to the people, there was one high Altar.We recieved at the Altar Rail while kneeling.The Mass was solemn. From the time people entered the church they were focused on the tabernacle - no talking.

Now at the English Mass, people are talking. Kids are playing with books and toys. Many leave early. The dress of both men and females is extremely casual bordering on innaproriate in many cases. About half are taking the Eucharist in their hands. Some adults are not paying attention. Some read the news paper.

What caused this difference in the behavior at Mass? To me it seems that the changes made Mass seem more like the Protestant “Church”, lots of singing and less focus on whats going on at the Alter.

Notice that I did not “bash” anyone. I am giving observations that could cause some to “bash”. There are valid reasons for the more liberal Catholics to disagree with the more conservative Catholic. The reasons are real. I think that poor Catechisis is the problem.


#10

I absolutely agree that catechisis is the problem. I have found a wonderful parish in thich those issues you raise don’t exist. People do not carry on conversations before, during or after Mass. You don’t see jeans or tank tops at Sunday Mass. About 80% recieve communion on the tongue (although the church doesn’t say that recieving in the hand is wrong). The large majority of adults and most of the children sit quiet and reverantly (or they are taken to the cry room). I’ve yet to see someone reading the newspaper. I have seen a few people praying the rosary during Mass which I don’t think is so appropriate (especial since we pray the rosary before every Mass.)

Father will say something if people start to converse on the way out of Mass (it usually only happens when there’s lots of guests like for a baptism.) We have had homilies on appropriate dress for Mass. The Catechisis for children is strong solid catholic teaching. And we have several young men that go off to study for the priesthood every year.

Catechisis is defiantely the problem not the Mass it self.


#11

One of the deeper issues is that our society as a whole has lost respect, old schoolers in here are screaming about it or else that stuff would be lost to history. I would have never heard of the TLM if it werent for this place, and that would have been a loss. They have a solid position about it when it is in line with the CC.

The bashing the way I see it is more of a counter bash. I havent really heard direct bashing at any individuals, but more like how they used to correct people and get results. You can only say please dont do that so many times. Where do you draw the line before you erupt. I just got out of that 2005 LA arena mass thread and I couldnt believe such things actually took place.

I dont see anyway out of this downward spiral. In the last few months the NO mass Im attending, the priest or deacon would walk around during the homily asking questions to the people having them raise thier hand. They dont even do a normal recap of the readings anymore. The music has turned into a soft rock concert. As time has gone on I havent even had to look for abuses, they find me. I sit there having to pray to God asking pardon for attending such abuse and pray that they stop, is that sad or what? I dont know what to say anymore. I dont get a TLM nearby, so I have to suffer through this? The biggest factor is that there is so much room to do your own thing during the NO, that its like when someone doesnt know what to say or cant think of anything it is their duty to make something up just to save face. This is mainline NO from what I have seen, I send letters, but that doesnt do anything. Its like the more this stuff goes on the more acceptable it becomes.

In terms of bashing, there is no way around it. If the CC allows them the old mass then their position is solid. I attend the NO, it can be done with respect, but it usually is not and is getting worse. It makes me want a mini inquizition or something. I dont know what else to say.


#12

So I guess what you are saying is that the Eucharist that is offered at the TLM is not important…:confused:
The TLM is just as important as the NO and the Pope said such in Ecclesia Dei.

Dont you think this is a little unfair? My comments were to point out that those who dismiss the NO as a valid Mass infer that people like myself who have never had the opportunity to go to a TLM are not (or in my case never were) true Catholics. IF the TLM was so important as to be the only valid Mass why is there none profferred in a hugle Catholic area? The only conclusion I draw is that it is not important that the Mass be TLM. Otherwise, people like myself born post V-II through no fault of our own, cannot be true Catholics without finding a Mass which in my experience is not offered


#13

Any minute now I’m expecting Rodney King to make an appearance. :smiley:


#14

Meant ‘yes’.

I’ve never attended the indult mass, but it is part of our church. We can’t ignore it and treat those who attend it like isolationist schismatics. Our Holy Father defended the rights of those who wish to attend the Tridentine Mass in Ecclesia Dei.

This issue appears to REALLY be dividing the laity, judging by the Liturgy forum.


#15

of course none of us like when people bash other people. thats usually not the issue. most of the time in a pole like this one the person who made it is mad that people are arguing against what they think is right. most likely you just dont want people complaining about the novus ordo, so you say that people are bashing people who like the novus ordo.


#16

[quote=RomanRiteTeen]Meant ‘yes’.

I’ve never attended the indult mass, but it is part of our church. We can’t ignore it and treat those who attend it like isolationist schismatics. Our Holy Father defended the rights of those who wish to attend the Tridentine Mass in Ecclesia Dei.

This issue appears to REALLY be dividing the laity, judging by the Liturgy forum.
[/quote]

You’re buying into a false notion that this is going on. There is a difference between a Trad and a rad-Trad. We’re also not talking about indults.


#17

[quote=EddieArent]Any minute now I’m expecting Rodney King to make an appearance. :smiley:
[/quote]

I an’t done bashin. I’ll bash anythin that pays enough!
Bashin is another name for free opinion…the engine of this forum!
Now gimme back my stick!

Signed,
[size=1]Basher for hire
[/size]


#18

[quote=rayne89]It seems to me that there are some on this board that believe unless you attend the TLM your not a true Catholic. Any comment that the Novus Ordo Mass can be beautiful and reverant is quickly brushed aside as almost impossible or extremely rare. The attitude seems to be that of superiority and smugness (at least in my opinion.) Since the question was posed about bashing traditionalist which I guess equates to those who follow the TLM, (although I’ve always considered myself a traditional conservative Catholic) I thought I’d pose the opposite question.
[/quote]

I’ve never heard so much controversy about “My Mass is better that your Mass” in my entire life as a Catholic (41 years)! I consider myself to be a Conservative and a Traditional even though I don’t attend TLM…I really wish it would stop. I wonder what those “waining” Catholics or those in RCIA who visit these fora must think.??? I certain hope that it hasn’t been the source of discouragement for them…:frowning:


#19

[quote=Mycroft]of course none of us like when people bash other people. thats usually not the issue. most of the time in a pole like this one the person who made it is mad that people are arguing against what they think is right. most likely you just dont want people complaining about the novus ordo, so you say that people are bashing people who like the novus ordo.
[/quote]

A) I’m not mad at anyone

B) I posted this thread in a counterance to the one posted about bashing traditionalist

C) I am frustrated by the fact that some on this board that hold the TLM in high regard continuely disparage the NO Mass. I have been told, that even though at the parish I go to the Novus Ordus is done reverantly without abuses I will still find my way to the TLM, because that is the true Catholic Mass. I have been told the TLM is the only Catholic way. I have never said anything negative about the TLM, only the attitude of some of those who attend it.

D) I consider myself a traditional conservative Catholic but have been told I am not because I follow the NO and not the TLM.

E) Our parish priest does a TLM indult at another parish, I have no problem with the TLM, I can sympathize with those who miss the traditional Mass. I am just so incredibly tired of being looked at as a second rate Catholic.

And lastly we are supposed to be ONE Holy Catholic Apostolic church, on this board I have been told since the TLM attendees generally have more children than those of the NO that will eventually out number us and the NO will die. What kind of childish rhetoric is that? Where is the unity?


#20

I, too have grown tired of the “I’m holier than thou” attitude that seems to creep into some of the threads herein.

I am old enough that I was an altar server before Vatican 2 and I’ve seen a good bit. I’ve seen 12 minute Masses in the Tridentine rite weekdays by a roaring drunk Irish priest, whom we swore could not only say Latin breathing out, but also breathing in. Try it; it’s a tad difficult. I’ve seen people become upset that they can’t say their rosaries, or read their devotional books, and who had no idea what the Mass was really about.

And I’ve seen the goofballs on the other end of the spectrum, too.

I consider myself an orthodox Roman Catholic. I do not pine for the Mass in Latin, nor do I pine for it in Greek (having studied both, I prefer Greek). I think one of the best things that ever happened was putting Mass back into the vernacular, where it started, and where it has continued in the Catholic Church since the time of Christ, in the Eastern rites.

I am amused by the vehemence of those supporting the Tridentine rite, and bemused by certain traits I see in them. They tend towards the anal retentive in terms of psychology; overly concerned with rules, to the point of some of them approaching legalism. I am particularly amused by their “black and white” world view, one that does not have the word 'Nuance" in the dictionary. I smell more than an occasional whiff of self-righteousness. I also perceive a need for an emotional fix, one that is achieved by a very rigid approach to rubrics (how often do we see allusions to the fact that the rubrics can’t be messed with in the Tridentine rite?).

I don’t consider the rubrics to be the playground of the priest. Neither do I consider it magic; it is simply the vehicle for shaping and directing our worship. I have seen rubrics police so focused on exactly how the priest said the Mass, that I wonder if they had any time at all to experience Christ.

I am tired to death of the comments about the Protestantizing of the Mass in the Pauline rite; I would guess that most of those people have never set foot in their life inside a Protestant church of any kind, whatsoever. If they think the Mass has been Protestantized, they need to go sit through a few services; they would realize how fantastically rich the Mass is, how beautiful it is, how wonderfully we can worship and what a gift we have in the Eucharist, whether it was the Tridentine of the Pauline rite, and they would immediately realize how similar these rites really are. However, if one is by nature a nit-picker, one will never look up to see the bigger picture.


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