Who Lives - Who Dies?

From an article in WND’S magazine:

Who Lives, Who Dies?

Take the case of Marjorie Nighbert, for example. Although she had asked for nothing more than a “little something to eat” and a drink of water, a Florida judge ruled she was not “competent” to make such a request for food, and the 83-year-old stroke victim was starved and dehydrated to death in a nursing home with full agreement of her family.

And yet, for every high-profile case involving the courts, many other elderly and disabled Americans are being quietly “helped along” toward death before their time, behind closed doors, without public knowledge. In hospices and nursing homes across the nation, citizens are being starved and dehydrated by removal of a feeding tube, or by refusal to insert a feeding tube when one is needed, or by administration of overly high doses of morphine. It’s a murky legal and ethical area where “quality of life” and economic considerations increasingly are trumping sanctity of life as society’s highest value – ending in premature death for too many of the nation’s elderly and disabled citizens.

worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44421

I knew the snakes were out!:mad: :mad: :mad: Not competent to request water:mad: :banghead: If we do not stand up they will knock people off in droves oops they are already doing it!:tsktsk: :banghead:

http://bestsmileys.com/bouncing/10.gif<–satan

:mad:

I hope we can obtain pictures of people right before their death and show them to the world together with concentration camp victims. hopefully it will help bring people’s conscience back

I do too,but you maybe "court ordered"like in Terris case to have camaras in there:mad: So as to hide the evil!!!:banghead:

let me see
2 cameras in sleeves and one in suitcase

all we need is a James Bond

Withholding and Withdrawing Life-Sustaining Treatment
RICHARD J. ACKERMANN, M.D.
Mercer University School of Medicine, Macon, Georgia

Potential reasons to withhold or withdraw artificial hydration or nutrition
The patient or decision maker, after being provided appropriate counseling and options, decides against this intervention to reflect personal values.
When the primary goal of the patient is palliation of symptoms
When the intervention is bound to fail (e.g., in patients with a disease that is uniformly fatal)
When the patient is dying, and the intervention is merely prolonging the dying process or causing suffering
When a patient has moderate or severe, irreversible cognitive impairment (e.g., Alzheimer’s dementia or vascular dementia)
When the intervention causes complications (e.g., agitation requiring sedation or physical restraints, infection, multiple tube obstructions or withdrawal, aspiration pneumonia)
To help relieve symptoms of fluid overload (e.g., dyspnea, diarrhea, urinary frequency or bowel obstruction) in terminally ill patients
When the patient has end-stage organ failure (e.g., respiratory, cardiac, renal)
When other end-stage diseases, such as metastatic cancer or advanced acquired immunodeficiency syndrome, are present
When a patient has had a stroke, is profoundly impaired and does not recover useful swallowing function
When the risks exceed the benefits
When the quality of life is poor, as defined by the patient

[quote=antiaphrodite]http://bestsmileys.com/bouncing/10.gif<–satan
[/quote]

God help us all!! Satan must indeed be laughing…

[quote=Lisa4Catholics]I do too,but you maybe "court ordered"like in Terris case to have camaras in there:mad: So as to hide the evil!!!:banghead:
[/quote]

Then we have to find a way to smuggle the Camera in…Like I said before, We need to get Terri’s Laws passed so judges don’t have that option, and state that in cases where the State becomes the Conservator, they can’t deny the person basic nutrition and hydration.

That’s the only way. For that, we either need to use the state’s initiative processes, in states like California, or we need to learn how to play legislatures the way George Felos did.

Meanwhile, civil disobedience in the form of Satyagraha may be useful if we can GET ENOUGH PEOPLE TO do it! Satyagraha works if you can get people to take people’s place as they’re arrested, so that the operation of Death is brought to a halt unless those in charge of its operation use violence. Satyagraha is another term for “Moral Blackmail”.

It’s a way to gert the ball rolling, but you’re going to need a lot of people who are willing to be arrested and not fight back when the Law Enforcement starts to imitate Sherriff Bull Conner. That’s NOT going to be easy.

But, it may be necessary.

May God bless those who act to save God’s Little Ones. Michael

[quote=WhiteDove]Withholding and Withdrawing Life-Sustaining Treatment
RICHARD J. ACKERMANN, M.D.
Mercer University School of Medicine, Macon, Georgia

Potential reasons to withhold or withdraw artificial hydration or nutrition
The patient or decision maker, after being provided appropriate counseling and options, decides against this intervention to reflect personal values.
When the primary goal of the patient is palliation of symptoms
When the intervention is bound to fail (e.g., in patients with a disease that is uniformly fatal)
When the patient is dying, and the intervention is merely prolonging the dying process or causing suffering
When a patient has moderate or severe, irreversible cognitive impairment (e.g., Alzheimer’s dementia or vascular dementia)
When the intervention causes complications (e.g., agitation requiring sedation or physical restraints, infection, multiple tube obstructions or withdrawal, aspiration pneumonia)
To help relieve symptoms of fluid overload (e.g., dyspnea, diarrhea, urinary frequency or bowel obstruction) in terminally ill patients
When the patient has end-stage organ failure (e.g., respiratory, cardiac, renal)
When other end-stage diseases, such as metastatic cancer or advanced acquired immunodeficiency syndrome, are present
When a patient has had a stroke, is profoundly impaired and does not recover useful swallowing function
When the risks exceed the benefits
When the quality of life is poor, as defined by the patient

[/quote]

Good find, White Dove,

The last one is very much against the teaching of the Church, and we should see if we can get physicians to reconsider this one. I’ve had days where I wouldn’t be fed under that protocol, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t end up deciding that I want to live. But, with the judge described above, once the decision id made, that’s it!

I’d sure hate to have someone’s complaining about how badly they feel be the basis for removal of nutrition and hydration, and then have that be it he or she suffered for 2 weeks weeks, or was EUTHANIZED like some animal!

May God richly bless those who act to save His Little Ones. MIchael

It’s not murky at all. The only time you may withhold food/water is when the food/water would cause undue pain or death, and when a natural cause will take them before the effects of dehydration. Pretty darn simple.

I hope we can obtain pictures of people right before their death and show them to the world together with concentration camp victims. hopefully it will help bring people’s conscience back
[/quote]

The conscience’s of many have been dulled and life in general is not held as the ultimate standard in many areas any longer. The old gods of Moloch still live. :frowning:

It really comes down to a question of societal values – and those in the modern world have long ago slipped.

[quote=HagiaSophia]The conscience’s of many have been dulled and life in general is not held as the ultimate standard in many areas any longer. The old gods of Moloch still live. :frowning:
[/quote]

Thanks for posting this Hagia we need to get some fire behind us and take action before it is too late:nope:

[quote=Lisa4Catholics]Thanks for posting this Hagia we need to get some fire behind us and take action before it is too late:nope:
[/quote]

I fear for many who are alive in these times, it already is. Years from now, people will shake their heads and wonder how we could have been so bloodthirsty and callous. But the church warned us years ago, once the sacredness of life was attacked through abortion, it was a matter of time before the sick, the elderly and the helpless were next. New sacrifices for Moloch who never seems to drink enough human blood.

[quote=HagiaSophia]I fear for many who are alive in these times, it already is. Years from now, people will shake their heads and wonder how we could have been so bloodthirsty and callous. But the church warned us years ago, once the sacredness of life was attacked through abortion, it was a matter of time before the sick, the elderly and the helpless were next. New sacrifices for Moloch who never seems to drink enough human blood.
[/quote]

I am so glad your back the forum has suffered from apathy from some we need to fight this big time!:mad:

[quote=Lisa4Catholics]I am so glad your back the forum has suffered from apathy from some we need to fight this big time!:mad:
[/quote]

I thank you so much for your very kind words. :slight_smile:

But people today are under siege in so many ways that often what appears to be apathy is never being catechized to the value of the human life and what a great gift it is. Ask anyone who has been close to or experienced many deaths – they understand how great a thing it is to be alive and how we must protect it.

The writer Taylor Caldwell many years ago predicted that people as a whole would be put under such pressure, to work, to succeed, to produce that their moral senses would not just be dulled but they would be pushed to and fro in so many directions by so many forces that the most previous commodities would be shoved onto the backburner. She was correct I fear, and we are living through a time that will be looked on in the future as something of how we look at the Roman persecutions, mass genocide and major wars. A battle for life itself.

[quote=HagiaSophia]I thank you so much for your very kind words. :slight_smile:

But people today are under siege in so many ways that often what appears to be apathy is never being catechized to the value of the human life and what a great gift it is. Ask anyone who has been close to or experienced many deaths – they understand how great a thing it is to be alive and how we must protect it.

The writer Taylor Caldwell many years ago predicted that people as a whole would be put under such pressure, to work, to succeed, to produce that their moral senses would not just be dulled but they would be pushed to and fro in so many directions by so many forces that the most previous commodities would be shoved onto the backburner. She was correct I fear, and we are living through a time that will be looked on in the future as something of how we look at the Roman persecutions, mass genocide and major wars. A battle for life itself.
[/quote]

Hagia:

A Survivor of the Bataan Death March died not too long ago, his name was David Levy.

At one point, during the Death March, one of his “Buddies” just couldn’t go any farther. So, without much thought and in violation of his superior’s orders, David slung his “buddy” over his shoulder (like a sack of mail-he had been a mailman), had the men in his company form a phalanx so the Japanese soldiers couldn’t see what was going on, and carried his “buddy” for the rest of the march (some 40 miles in 3 days).

As I said, David and the men in his company did this in spite of their Captain’s orders. His buddy’s life meant more to him (and to them) than it did to their Captain.

If the Japanese had caught David’s company, they would have slaughtered the whole lot of them in the most horrible manner possible. That’s what had the Captain so worried…

The Captain was a Protestant Christian. David Levy was a sceptical Jew. That week, I’d say the Catachesis about the value of human life was taught by the Jewish man.

The Talmud says that he who saves ONE life saves the world. That’s how important human life is to God.

I was priviledged to be with him the day he died.

Hagia, I think it’s more the dislocation of our society than bad catechesis. If David Levy could get it, we should be able to get it. But what he had was STABILITY in childhood until his early 20’s. We have got to find some way to restore that to our Churches, communities and families, and that includes LITURGICAL STABILITY (the “Experimenters” and “Reformers” have done the Church NO FAVORS).

Hagia, with stability, we’ll see people forming relationships, and, as those relationships begin to matter, people will begin to value those lives… It’s not that far a distance to go from valuing PARTICULAR lives to valuing GENERAL HUMAN lives.

I know it can be done, because I’ve seen it.

May God richly bless those who act to save His Little Ones. Michael

[quote=Traditional Ang]Hagia:

A Survivor of the Bataan Death March died not too long ago, his name was David Levy.

At one point, during the Death March, one of his “Buddies” just couldn’t go any farther. So, without much thought and in violation of his superior’s orders, David slung his “buddy” over his shoulder (like a sack of mail-he had been a mailman), had the men in his company form a phalanx so the Japanese soldiers couldn’t see what was going on, and carried his “buddy” for the rest of the march (some 40 miles in 3 days).

As I said, David and the men in his company did this in spite of their Captain’s orders. His buddy’s life meant more to him (and to them) than it did to their Captain.

If the Japanese had caught David’s company, they would have slaughtered the whole lot of them in the most horrible manner possible. That’s what had the Captain so worried…

The Captain was a Protestant Christian. David Levy was a sceptical Jew. That week, I’d say the Catachesis about the value of human life was taught by the Jewish man.

The Talmud says that he who saves ONE life saves the world. That’s how important human life is to God.

I was priviledged to be with him the day he died.

Hagia, I think it’s more the dislocation of our society than bad catechesis. If David Levy could get it, we should be able to get it. But what he had was STABILITY in childhood until his early 20’s. We have got to find some way to restore that to our Churches, communities and families, and that includes LITURGICAL STABILITY (the “Experimenters” and “Reformers” have done the Church NO FAVORS).

Hagia, with stability, we’ll see people forming relationships, and, as those relationships begin to matter, people will begin to value those lives… It’s not that far a distance to go from valuing PARTICULAR lives to valuing GENERAL HUMAN lives.

I know it can be done, because I’ve seen it.

May God richly bless those who act to save His Little Ones. Michael
[/quote]

***WOW! I am crying as I write this. This is a beautiful story. Praise God for the courage of that man. You said he was a skeptical Jew. Did he ever convert/ become a “non-skeptical” Jew? ***

[quote=Traditional Ang]Hagia, I think it’s more the dislocation of our society than bad catechesis. If David Levy could get it, we should be able to get it. But what he had was STABILITY in childhood until his early 20’s. We have got to find some way to restore that to our Churches, communities and families, and that includes LITURGICAL STABILITY (the “Experimenters” and “Reformers” have done the Church NO FAVORS).
[/quote]

I think that stability is the first step, the first building block as it were, but then comes societal affirmation, over and over and over again. When I was growing up a youngster who went against the family and church values got no sympathy anywhere. All of society, doctors, the law, the school, the writers of the time were of the voice that to integrate oneself into a just and good society was the highest moral order in this world. We were expected to do that with family, with church, with work, with friends. When was the last time outside of a service unit you heard anyone exhort a kid to faith, to duty, honor, country? To be a person of honor is not even discussed with the young today. They are encouraged to seek vice and depravity as their social enjoyments and society tells them over and over again how wonderful it is to have free license, put self first – the big lie is sold to them that everyone is a winner.

[quote=Traditional Ang]Hagia, with stability, we’ll see people forming relationships, and, as those relationships begin to matter, people will begin to value those lives… It’s not that far a distance to go from valuing PARTICULAR lives to valuing GENERAL HUMAN lives.
[/quote]

You can’t even introduce the concept until you do away with the fallacious nonsense peddled today that to “discriminate” is to be somehow bad or judgmental. Every idea cannot be of equal value, every vice cannot be marketed as a free and acceptable choice. And God must be returned to the place of honor He always held particularly in American life , an integral part of our growing up, our living and our dying. This insanity of trying to deny the third part of His creation – the soul/spirit of of man, has to be denounced for what it really is, the tool of those who seek to deprive the Eternal One of His right and due among His creation.

[quote=Traditional Ang]May God richly bless those who act to save His Little Ones. Michael
[/quote]

And may God continue to bless us with angels, messengers of His abiding love, like David Levy who continue to, in some wonderful, miraculous way, arise from amongst us, leading us to a higher sustained plane of life and thought. May God grant Him a blessed and rich reward for “no greater love hath any man than to lay down his life”…God be with his family and friends at this time. The world is poorer for losing him.

For those born between the years 1946-1964 (The Baby Boomers) the future looks very ominous. Would it be too far-fetched to think that those born during those years are going to be the victim of “death with dignity?” Would it be ludicrous to think that even some on this site might be the victim of such a horrific end? Let’s face it, the tentacles of Liberalism are ensnaring every facet of society, and this aspect of this ideology believes that we individuals can choose when to die. It also does not understand the redemptive value of suffering. As a matter of fact, in its naivete it abhors suffering and seeks to eliminate it all cost, so this misplaces sense of compassion, ironically, results in the belief that one should be put out of one’s misery, similar to putting a dog to sleep.But such a decision intercepts God’s role as the State now comes to the aid of the person and decide who lives and who dies. Well, now life becomes expendable and the incentive to keep one help one get better is thwarted because of external determinants, e.g. too old, too sick, too burdensome, etc. And with 64 million Baby Boomers heading into middle age and beyond, many are going to be subject to the decisions of the State. This scenario reminds me of a herd of zebras running in all directions desparate to escape the deadly jaws of the lion. Suddenly, the old, the weak, the babies – the vulnerable --fall behind, and the lion quickly seizes its prey…and the others in the herd just keep running, never looking back to see what happened to a fellow member of the herd…Well…You better watch out “zebras” …you better watch out…Because the State will be there to seize you. only they call it “taking care of you” should you stumble and fall. And no one will be there to look back.

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