Who/what are the waldensians


#1

Was flipping channels and came across this guy on TBN. What caught me was that he was talking about the blessed mother. I was piqued so i listened.

Basically he was saying that mediators we create are mediators we can manipulate, and went on to say that the slaughter of the waldensians was justified because it was done in the name of the Blessed mother.

So what is this show, who is this guy, and who were the waldensians.

On a side note i gotta say i was one breath away from taking a bat to the TV. With the smile on his face just… Christ’s mother, you know what i mean. Something welled up inside me and i felt like he was trying to lay waste to my mother. In truth i guess he was huh?:frowning:


#2

I posted a longer response but it got lost, so I’ll give a shorter version. The Waldenses are a medieval dissenting group–initially much like the early Franciscans except that the bishop did not authorize them to preach. Their founder, Peter Waldo, seems to have reconciled with the Church, but many of his followers did not and became increasingly critical of medieval Catholicism. They rejected many doctrines such as purgatory, the authority of the priesthood, the intercession of the saints, etc., but they seem never to have seen themselves as completely separate from the Church. They were persecuted viciously, especially in the 15th and the 17th centuries, if I remember rightly. When the Reformation occurred, they became Protestants and specifically Calvinists, and today they exist as the “Presbyterian Church of Italy.”

They often claimed to be the descendants of early Christians who retreated to the Alps when the Church compromised with the state in the time of Constantine. Protestants tended to accept this claim and you can find it in many older Protestant works of church history, as part of claiming a sort of “apostolic succession” for non-Catholic ideas throughout the Middle Ages. Many fundamentalists still repeat this idea, but I don’t know of a single modern scholar who accepts it.

The eminent historian Euan Cameron (author of one of the best general books on the Reformation IMHO) has recently written a book on the Waldenses, though I haven’t had occasion to read it yet.

In Christ,

Edwin


#3

Read this: The Trail of Blood: Baptist Successionism

Scott


#4

[quote=as-a-child]Was flipping channels and came across this guy on TBN. What caught me was that he was talking about the blessed mother. I was piqued so i listened.

Basically he was saying that mediators we create are mediators we can manipulate, and went on to say that the slaughter of the waldensians was justified because it was done in the name of the Blessed mother.

So what is this show, who is this guy, and who were the waldensians.

On a side note i gotta say i was one breath away from taking a bat to the TV. With the smile on his face just… Christ’s mother, you know what i mean. Something welled up inside me and i felt like he was trying to lay waste to my mother. In truth i guess he was huh?:frowning:
[/quote]

Hi,

The only Waldensians that come to mind were the followers of a rich merchant by the name of Valdes from Lyons, who was excommunicated by the council of Verona in 1184 for preaching outside the authority of the Church and also for claiming that the Eucharist celebrated by an unworthy Priest is invalid.

There is more information here: newadvent.org/cathen/15527b.htm

Yours in the Spirit

Pious


#5

as-a-child, The program you saw was broadcast on TBN (Trinity Broadcasting Network). I saw part of it today. I’ll let you know what they claim is the “history” of the Waldensians after I’ve read “Faith Against the Odds,” which was the publication the spokesman was touting. It was free, so I ordered it. It’s a publication of the Seventh-Day Adventists, so you can bet it’s anti-Catholic to the core.

I only heard part of the presentation, but it was alleging that the King of France was the Pope’s pawn in persecuting the Waldensians (followers of Peter Waldo, or Valdez). It accused the Catholic Church of setting up mediators between God and man – other than Christ – in order to sustain her power and influence. One of these mediators was alleged to be Our Blessed Mother, Mary. In the background as this SDA guy talked were shots of St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome, with anti-Catholic rhetoric designed to inflame the passions of the SDA faithful and SDA wannabe’s against the Church.

This presentation is based on a false premise. The Church teaches now and has always taught that the only MEDIATOR between God and man is Jesus Christ. The saints, including the BVM, are intercessors, or mediators with a small “m.” I am a mediator for you when I pray for you. But I don’t come between you and you God! Christ opened the gates of heaven, Mary helps us get through those gates by her powerful prayers. Catholics pray for each other. But that’s too hard for some people to understand.

Modern Waldensians deny that they are or have ever been Sabbatarians or were ever persecuted for worshiping on
Saturday. So it will be interesting to learn why the SDA’s are using them to tout their brand of denominationalism.

sdaoutreach.org/whataboutwaldensians.cfm

:smiley: JMJ Jay


#6

I just learned that the program on the Waldensians is available to be viewed at the SDA website: iiw.org/

The presenter is SDA Pastor Mark Finley.

JMJ Jay


#7

[quote=Katholikos]as-a-child, The program you saw was broadcast on TBN (Trinity Broadcasting Network). I saw part of it today. I’ll let you know what they claim is the “history” of the Waldensians after I’ve read “Faith Against the Odds,” which was the publication the spokesman was touting. It was free, so I ordered it. It’s a publication of the Seventh-Day Adventists, so you can bet it’s anti-Catholic to the core.

I only heard part of the presentation, but it was alleging that the King of France was the Pope’s pawn in persecuting the Waldensians (followers of Peter Waldo, or Valdez). It accused the Catholic Church of setting up mediators between God and man – other than Christ – in order to sustain her power and influence. One of these mediators was alleged to be Our Blessed Mother, Mary. In the background as this SDA guy talked were shots of St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome, with anti-Catholic rhetoric designed to inflame the passions of the SDA faithful and SDA wannabe’s against the Church.

This presentation is based on a false premise. The Church teaches now and has always taught that the only MEDIATOR between God and man is Jesus Christ. The saints, including the BVM, are intercessors, or mediators with a small “m.” I am a mediator for you when I pray for you. But I don’t come between you and you God! Christ opened the gates of heaven, Mary helps us get through those gates by her powerful prayers. Catholics pray for each other. But that’s too hard for some people to understand.

Modern Waldensians deny that they are or have ever been Sabbatarians or were ever persecuted for worshiping on
Saturday. So it will be interesting to learn why the SDA’s are using them to tout their brand of denominationalism.

sdaoutreach.org/whataboutwaldensians.cfm

:smiley: JMJ Jay
[/quote]

Simple they are trying to link themselves to any group that dissented to Rome and still beleived in the trinity. The Waldensians were among the earliest dissenters that still were trinitarian. They are looking to prove that protestantism is some way always existed prior to the Reformation even.
The original Waldensians certainly didn’t believe in the Reformation doctrine of faith alone they beleived in 7 sacraments not 2 and believed in a monastic life being superior certainly not something protestants would admit to. There are no pre-refromation Waldensians left only Waldensians lite who took the name and drooped their original theology for Calvins.


#8

Wow. Thanks fo all the info. So why is TBN running SDA programming. I don’t see Benny hinn on 3abn. hmmm…


#9

Hi all!

See waldensian.org/. I used to know a kid back in the USA whose father was a Waldensian.

Be well!

ssv :wave:


#10

[quote=as-a-child]Wow. Thanks fo all the info. So why is TBN running SDA programming. I don’t see Benny hinn on 3abn. hmmm…
[/quote]

TBN is about money – and lots of it. TBN accepts programming from most any group that has the $ to buy the air time. They even have a token Catholic priest. Father Manning, of the Society of the Divine Word – Societas Verbi Divini --Missionaries, has been on TBN for years with his program. Pro-Catholic, anti-Catholic, anything gets on TBN if it pays.:stuck_out_tongue:

JMJ Jay


#11

Hello Katholikos,

I hope you are doing well. The Waldensians were actually part of the True Church of God. They followed the doctrines of the Bible, I haven’t soaked up much else about them, but I can refer you to where you can learn more if your interested.

Take care, Glenamyaglen


#12

[quote=Glenamyaglen]Hello Katholikos,

I hope you are doing well. The Waldensians were actually part of the True Church of God. They followed the doctrines of the Bible, I haven’t soaked up much else about them, but I can refer you to where you can learn more if your interested.

Take care, Glenamyaglen
[/quote]

Hello! :wave: The True Church is not based on the Bible. Rather, the New Testament is a mirror reflection of the Catholic Church who wrote it. Any other interpretation is a ***mis***interpretation. The Bible is not the sole source of Christian faith and morals. The Waldensians are heretics.:slight_smile:

JMJ Jay


#13

The “Trail of Blood” isn’t a trail at all. It’s a random assortment of heretics with different beliefs… the only thing linking them being their opposition to the Catholic Church. I was a Baptist until 3 months ago. I enter the Catholic Church this March. Anyone who truly studies history has to come to the same conclusion that I did.

-Michael

[quote=Scott Waddell]Read this: The Trail of Blood: Baptist Successionism

Scott
[/quote]


#14

[quote=SouthCoast]The “Trail of Blood” isn’t a trail at all. It’s a random assortment of heretics with different beliefs… the only thing linking them being their opposition to the Catholic Church. I was a Baptist until 3 months ago. I enter the Catholic Church this March. Anyone who truly studies history has to come to the same conclusion that I did.

-Michael
[/quote]

I jumped the (Southern) Baptist ship years ago; illogical Sola Scriptura drove me to agnosticism and then atheism. The logic and sheer beauty of Catholicism finally pulled me out of that black hole. I LOVE THIS CHURCH WITH ALL MY HEART AND SOUL! May you love it, too. Welcome home! ~ Jay


#15

The king in question was Louis XVI, who was nobody’s pawn. This is one of the silliest and most vicious lies of Protestant polemic–that when Catholic monarchs do bad stuff they’re being manipulated by the evil Church, when quite likely it’s the other way round. (One of the most patently absurd instances of this was William Tyndale’s accusation that Henry VIII’s quest for an annulment was instigated by the churchmen at his court such as Cardinal Wolsey. Of course, if Tyndale had lived a bit longer, he would have seen how wrong he was . . . . )

Granted, I think the Pope was quite happy that Louis was trying to root out heresy–at least I know of no record of any protest. But it was Louis’s initiative.

In Christ,

Edwin


#16

[quote=Glenamyaglen]Hello Katholikos,

I hope you are doing well. The Waldensians were actually part of the True Church of God. They followed the doctrines of the Bible, I haven’t soaked up much else about them, but I can refer you to where you can learn more if your interested.

Take care, Glenamyaglen
[/quote]

Uhh the creed says one holy catholic and apostolic church.
not the Waldensians or anabaptist or whatever sect the Baptist use to prove their conncection to the early church.


#17

Hello Katholikos,

I figured you would take the old denial route, and accuse the True Church of being heretics, thats what the Church fathers had always done. But the Bible says that “the faith was once for all delivered to the saints.” Jude 3 so that being the case there really was no need for any new writings since the faith was once and for all delivered to the saints, of course the Bible also talks about an individual which really represents a system that persecutes the True saints, speaking great arrogant words like the Word of God doesn’t matter because the “so called” Church says so, my friend you got it backwards. This “so called” Church also tries to change times and law, like the Sabbath and the Holy Days changed to Sunday and the pagan holidays such as christmas and the like, Daniel 7:25. The Waldensians were in fact part of the True Church of God!

But trying to tell you something is like talking to someone who thinks they know everything…oh well.

GED


#18

[quote=Glenamyaglen]Hello Katholikos,
I figured you would take the old denial route, and accuse the True Church of being heretics, thats what the Church fathers had always done. But the Bible says that “the faith was once for all delivered to the saints.” Jude 3 so that being the case there really was no need for any new writings since the faith was once and for all delivered to the saints, of course the Bible also talks about an individual which really represents a system that persecutes the True saints, speaking great arrogant words like the Word of God doesn’t matter because the “so called” Church says so, my friend you got it backwards. This “so called” Church also tries to change times and law, like the Sabbath and the Holy Days changed to Sunday and the pagan holidays such as christmas and the like, Daniel 7:25. The Waldensians were in fact part of the True Church of God!

But trying to tell you something is like talking to someone who thinks they know everything…oh well.

GED
[/quote]

GED, I apologize if I’ve given you the impression that I think I know everything. I definitely don’t. All I know is what I know :D. I know the history of early Christianity – which is concomitant and synonomous with the history of the Catholic Church – and I know the history of the Bible.

I know that the Bible didn’t fall out of heaven ready made, but rather it is a collection of writings which were chosen from among many writings. The Catholic Church selected the contents of the New Testament from among her own writings, and she inherited the Old Testament from Jesus and the Apostles. Jude 3, ". . .the “faith which was once for all delivered to the saints,” refers to the original Christian faith – the Catholic Faith – not one that developed centuries later.

The Catholic Church didn’t come out of the Bible; rather, the Bible came out of the Catholic Church. The New Testament is a mirror reflection of the teaching of the Church who wrote it. The Church was nearly 400 years old before she formed the Bible.

History does not tell us the date of the birth of Jesus – even the year of his birth is uncertain. So the Catholic Church chose December 25 as the day on which to celebrate this great occasion. Sorry if that upsets you. What would you do if you didn’t know your birthday? Pick a day – any day. :smiley:

The Apostles changed the Jewish Sabbath – which begins at sundown on Friday night and ends when the stars come out on Saturday night – to the Lord’s Day, Sunday, the day of the Resurrection. After the Ascension of Jesus, the Apostles met for the ‘breaking of the bread’ (as the Mass was called then) on the first day of the week (Sunday). So please take your complaint about that up with The Twelve.

Thanks for your comments. Peace be with you, Jay


#19

YEAH THE BIBLE WAS DELIVERED TO THE SAINTS. The saints of the catholic church. Not the saints of some heresy 13 centuries later. That would require a deliverance two times now wouldn’t it? The catholic church recieved the tradition of the saints and later canonized this tradition to be the Bible. The canon did not come with the Bilble. It did not fall out of the sky it did not come with an inspired table of contents on the traidtion that was deliverd to the catholic church could rightlfully determine what was exactly scripture. Read the early church fathers only they has a tradition handed down to them by the apostles part of this tradition was the scripture the heretics sometimes used these scriptures to their own devices and sometimes they added their own heretical scripture only the catholic church had the tradition during its councils to differentiate these conflicting traditions. Sorry the sects you mention don’t go back that far neither do they have the authority to determine canon. I suspects you have heard of the gnostic gospels who besides the catholic church were battling the early heretics and rejecting their false doctrines and false texts. The catholic church was alone in defending the trinity alone in defending true scripture for 1500 years where were your ture churches? Hiding out as Jesus good name was dragged through the mud. Hiding out while scripture was attacked. That is a history redux that doesn’t jive for Jesus church was a light to the world not hidden in some cabe in Egypt which describes the gnostics and other heretics. The catholic church preached and baptized to all nations just like Jesus instructed the church to do.
WIthout the catholic church no person would know the orthodox story of Christianity today.


#20

[quote=Glenamyaglen]Hello Katholikos,

I figured you would take the old denial route, and accuse the True Church of being heretics, thats what the Church fathers had always done.
[/quote]

We have to deny what is false, being that the Catholic Church is the True Church.

The Waldensians were in fact part of the True Church of God!

They may have originally been, but they left for Heresy.

But trying to tell you something is like talking to someone who thinks they know everything…oh well.

GED

Looks as if this statement could apply to you. Read history, study the Church from the beginning, and don’t accept what someone comes up with in recent time.

Kotton :thumbsup:


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