Whore of Babylon.

A protestant wrote:

"The Church has killed more that 50 million people during the dark ages. The “persecution” described over here talks about the pagan roman empire, The church that came from the pagan roman empire and this killing will continue when the Beast & the False prophet will come together and start persecuting God’s people again until the 2nd coming of Christ.

That the church did persecute is a well-known fact. The papacy clearly admits doing so. Much supportive evidence exists. Even conservative historians claim the church probably destroyed at least 50 million people over matters of religious conviction. I will quote here from two sources:

"That the Church of Rome has shed more innocent blood than any other institution that has ever existed among mankind, will be questioned by no Protestant who has a competent knowledge of history.

W. E. H. Lecky, History of the Rise and Influence of the Spirit of Rationalism in Europe, Volume 2, p. 40

In The History of the Inquisition of Spain, D. Ivan Antonio Llorente provides these figures from the Spanish Inquisition alone:

31,912 persons were condemned and perished in the flames.
241,450 persons were condemned to severe penalties.

Lest some should think that I am attacking fellow Christians by identifying this little-horn power, please keep in mind that the prophecy is aimed at a system and not individuals. There are sincere, devout Christians in all churches, including the Catholic faith. Daniel chapter 7 is simply a message of judgment and correction upon a large religious institution which compromised with paganism, like so many other churches that arose after her.

Other prophecies point out the faults of Protestant and Jewish faiths. God has true people in all religions. His true people (no matter what their faith) will always humbly accept the correction of the Lord and will not shut their ears and hearts against Him by self-defensiveness. We should be very thankful that God’s Word speaks with impartial honesty on every subject."

Refute it!

The current accepted number of deaths in the Spanish Inquisition is 3000-5000, I believe.

But let’s use the given figure of 32,000. 50 million divided by 32,000 is 1562. That is, there were 1562 times as many deaths as in the Spanish Inquisition. Now everybody has heard of the Spanish Inquisition, right? So where is the detailed information on these other 1561 “Spanish Inquisition” death tolls? There should be 1561 times as much information on all these other deaths as on the Spanish Inquisition. So where is the historical evidence?

The real facts are simple. 50 million is just an invented number. It is a lie. Sometimes they say 75 million or 100 million or 125 million. Any really big number will do.

Note that the entire population of Europe was not 50 million during the “dark ages”. That’s like saying the Church killed 350 million people in America, but future historians had no evidence of it. How likely is that? :rolleyes:

What page does W. E. H. Lecky state in that volume (a volume that has seems to have a pro-rationalism and anti-religious mindset may I add) that the number is specifically 50 million? His statement seems to sound more like something out of the mouth of your typical anti-Catholic historian.

So basically, if we change our system back to the way this so-called protestant wants us too, he won’t target the Church anymore.

Tell this guy that he might as well tell our Church to become protestant. Nuff said. He’s just adding more poisoned sugar to his already venomously deceiving propaganda. :rolleyes:

My translation of that: “His ‘true people’ will know that I’m right and their religion is wrong and will not attempt to defend what they believe in.”

So in short, God’s “true people” are actually just the easy prey for proselytizers to take advantage of. Following this stupid logic, why does one even bother to stay in that religion then? :rolleyes:

More poison from the “black legend”. English propagandists did their job extremely well.and now we have modern equivalents in such tripe that Dan Brown, et al have perpetrated on the public.the number is more like the deaths due to yhe black death. If you add Black Death fatalities with Black Legend ‘fatalities’ then no Europeans should have survived and no one would be alive.

“Whore of Babylon”

What did you call me friend?

Originally Posted by WesleyF forums.catholic.com/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
"Whore of Babylon"

What did you call me friend?

It gets hard to want to respond to this nonsense everytime it pops up. The only suggestion I can give you is read your history, and not just from one source that agrees with your ideology.

Name two, please - and they must be historians, not mere scribblers of anti-Catholic tirades. H.C. Lea was one: the archives of the Spanish Inquisition (which are incomplete - thanks to Napoleon :() in particular have received a degree of attention they had not when Lea wrote. And the S.I. attracts attention from Jews as well as Spaniards & English-speakers: any idea that it is a dirty secret the CC has tried mighty hard to keep from public knowledge (as Jack Chick seems to think) is ignorant nonsense.

That the Church persecuted is not an issue - the manner adopted, and the scale, are. The Church has always possessed the power of coercion in some degree: Paul exercised it. The various measures taken by the Church to limit the activities of heretics, or to execute the heretics, are little more than expressions of this power in a juridical & canonical form. The penalty of death was the reward for treason - heresy could be seen as treason against the King of Kings, & be punished as severely as its earthly counterpart. Right or wrong, it was not unreasonable to punish the latter as severely as the former; Roman Law - specifically, a law of Diocletian against the Manoichees in 297 - provided the method. BTW, burning was also the penalty for treason by a woman in England, as more decent than what male traitors not of noble birth had to look forward to.

The humanitarian instinct that seeks lessen needless pain is very recent - 200 years old, perhaps. OTOH, it our century that has seen hundreds of millions of abortions, two world wars, countless smaller ones, & too many dictators to count. Those who point the finger at the CC might remember that.

I will quote here from two sources:

"That the Church of Rome has shed more innocent blood than any other institution that has ever existed among mankind, will be questioned by no Protestant who has a competent knowledge of history.

W. E. H. Lecky, History of the Rise and Influence of the Spirit of Rationalism in Europe, Volume 2, p. 40

Lecky wrote in the mid-19th century, in the heyday of Victorian liberal optimism; he had not heard of Hitler, Stalin, & Mao: whose talents for shedding blood make the bloodthirtiest of Popes seem like beginners. Nor had he seen how many foetuses would be killed by legal abortion; the Popes have been untiring & vigorous in their rejection of abortion. And he does not support your stat of 50 million. He may have been right at the time - then again, he may not.

In The History of the Inquisition of Spain, D. Ivan Antonio Llorente provides these figures from the Spanish Inquisition alone:

Not “Ivan” - Juan. What would an 18th-century Catholic be doing with a Russian Christian name ? Catholics until very recently were baptised with the names of Saints, & no “Saint Ivan” was known in 18th-century Spain; but there was no lack of "San Juan"s. Must Catholics correct even the most elementary mistakes of their accusers :eek: ? FWIW, why do people not make their own accusations, rather than running off to some web-page to do their work for them ? At the very least, they ought to correct blunders in them before serving them up to us.

31,912 persons were condemned and perished in the flames.

The figure is sometimes given as 31,920. FWIW, Llorente says that his stat is an approximation - all one need do is look at the 1826 ET of his book to find that said. It is in any case not accurate - it’s much too high.

more…

…suite et fin…

241,450 persons were condemned to severe penalties.

See above.

Many of those burned were strangled at the last moment. Of those burned, some were executed for heresy, some for sodomy, some for murder, & others for other capital offences. Witches were burned for a long period, ending in the 17th century; after two 17-year olds were burned for sodomy in 1588, the age of accountability was raised in order to avoid burning the young. (The Roman Inquisition, which burned a boy and a priest for the same activity about that time, is not on record as having followed this example).

The S.I. cannot be understood without some knowledge of its history, and of where it had jurisdiction, when, over what crimes, & why. The importance of this can hardly be exaggerated. It did not spring fully-formed into being in 1478 - what it was by 1814 was the result of a long historical process. For example, the Inquisition of Torquemada did not have jurisdiction in the Canary Islands, or over sodomy, or over Portuguese Jews - at one or another time, this or that tribunal did. And these variations require some knowledge of the political history of Spain, & of the history of how the objections of the Cortes to the Inquisition were over-ridden.

Venice had its own Inquisition - and burned no criminals; it drowned them instead, at night. One of the least attractive aspects of the procedure followed by the Spanish Inquisition was that its executions became social “occasions”; that this was true of all Europe, irrespective of religion, & had long been, & would be for a good while, is not much of an excuse.

Lest some should think that I am attacking fellow Christians by identifying this little-horn power,

Daniel 7-11 is not remotely relevant to the Spanish Inquisition, nor to the Catholic Church, nor to any state or Church that had existed at any time since the second century B.C.

please keep in mind that the prophecy is aimed at a system and not individuals. There are sincere, devout Christians in all churches,

Sincerity and devotion save nobody. They are good & desirable, but they keep no one from doing evil.

including the Catholic faith. Daniel chapter 7 is simply a message of judgment and correction upon a large religious institution which compromised with paganism, like so many other churches that arose after her.

The Inquisition may well be *distasteful *- but how is it pagan ?

Other prophecies point out the faults of Protestant and Jewish faiths. God has true people in all religions. His true people (no matter what their faith) will always humbly accept the correction of the Lord and will not shut their ears and hearts against Him by self-defensiveness. We should be very thankful that God’s Word speaks with impartial honesty on every subject."

Refute it!

What do you want refuted ? The CC has done some horrible thingss in its history - but what of it ? History does not save - the grace of Christ does that.

While we are about it: the US uses eloctrocution in some states. To this Briton, that seems unspeakably barbaric, & always has. Does it follow that anyone who defends it is an unChristian savage ? If not - why should those Christians who did not condemn punishments that may seem to us barbaric or unChristian,not be considered Christian ? Feeling on such matters can change very quickly: corporal punishment was quite usual in UK schools until 1997 - now it’s illegal, & is commonly spoken of as a barbarity; yet it was taken for granted as something quite unremarkable, & normal. Why should the S.I. not have been as normal in its day ?

The idea that the burden of proof is on us is a bit silly.

I could just as easily say that sola Scriptura has killed a billion people, and then cross my arms and wait for refutation. The fact is, there is no record of the Church persecuting so many people; the Spanish Inquisition is only confirmed to have executed 5,000, and they weren’t even operating under the Papal States, but rather the Spanish monarchy.

That’s exactly what Jesus will say to them on judgement day. :smiley:

The Prophecy is largely about the end of the Old Covenant age and the Sanhedrin, and the birth of Christianity.

The little horn is Nero. He spoke words against the Most High (Dan 7:25), by the blasphemy of enforcing emperor worship, which was an attempt to change the law. The explaination of the three horns he sprung out of (Dan 7:8), who were royal (Dan 7:24) is:

Nero’s mother married emperor Claudius after he was born. Nero married his stepsister, Octavia, who was Claudius daughter. He became favored over Claudius’ blood son Britannicus. When Nero became emperor, he murdered all three of those relatives, who he saw as rival.

When the army and Praetorian Guard rose up in rebellion against him, he fled then committed suicide. The dynasty that began with Caesar Augustus ended with him. Vespasian, a man outside of line of Caesars who was not an aristocrat, became emperor. This fulfilled (Dan 7:26).

He was the leader of the beast who made war with the saints and prevailed over them (Dan 7:21), which is the frist reference to the Great Tribulation. First he persecuted the Church, as a scapegoat for the fire of Rome, until his attention was diverted by the Jewish-Roman War (which destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple). Nero was the first of ten emperors who persecuted the Church.

He made war against the law (Judaism) for three and a half years (Dan 7:25) February of 67 A.D. to August of 70 A.D. The Whore of Babylon is the Sanhedrin.

Who are ‘them’?

History is such a tricky thing for non-Catholics. But, I have a solution.

Good, orthodox Catholic audio files (.mp3’s) on Catholic history, from the beginning to now!

alabamacatholicresources.com/church_history.html

Scooby :slight_smile:

Anti-Catholics.

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