I continually see threads here on the Reformation and its issues. It’s like if hubby and I had a fight thirty years ago and he keeps bringing it up, even though he and I both agreed, then, that the issues were settled. Both Catholics and Protestants (uh, western, non-Catholic Christians) have moved along from what happened 500 years ago. Why are people dealing with it as if we are frozen in time and nothing has happened since then?
Ummmm, could it be that this event is what caused a break up of Christ’s Church?, and led to over 30,000 protestant denominations?
let’s see…The Orientals split in the 300s and the Orthodox 700 years later, and you know the 30,000 number is baloney.
That was then, this is now.
Because, like all divorces, the repercussions on the children are long-lasting, devastating and contrary to the unity willed by Him.
What is the correct number of Christian denominations? I will gladly consider using that statistic, if you provide a source for this. It should, of course, count all of these independent churches, which are found on practically every street corner, in every city, in every state, in every country, of the world.
Because it has defined the world up and to this day? The reformation is a fuss because it single handedly lead to the western world we know today. Either you hate it or love it, but it is certainty a big deal and a worthy topic of debate.
It was a pivotal moment in world history, and IMO a positive event.
What I find I interesting is the speech directed towards my hero Luther.
An impossible task. Why? Because how would you even begin to calculate the number? What constitutes a denomination? Any disagreement? Any geographical barrier? Any division at all? Any theological disagreement?
Barrett went with each geographic boundary constitutes a different denomination, that’s how he came up with 242 Catholic denominations. He did that with every other denomination. That’s how the Barrett study came up with 30k denominations. A ridiculously inflated number.
You are not making sense.
If 30K is “ridiculously inflated”, then that means that the number is exceedingly small.
So what number is the correct number, that’s exceedingly small?
I think I would prefer it if a lot of the energy that went into Luther-bashing, or Calvin-bashing (when they get tired of Luther-bashing) went into how we can walk in charity with each other today. We are NOT going back in time to fix what happened then. Blaming each other goes nowhere. It is good to know history, bad to repeat it, to continually bring up what the other’s ancestors did.
That was then, this is now. Where do we go from here?
Egg-zactly. It would appear that the number is exceedingly LARGE, and almost incalculable. Probably in the millions. Which makes the 30K number a ridiculous UNDERESTIMATION.
It is the fruit of the Protestant Reformation and the idea that all of us can read the Scriptures without the lens of the Catholic Church and come to our own doctrines.
What constitutes a denomination? Any disagreement? Any geographical barrier? Any division at all? Any theological disagreement?
A denomination is any church that answers to no one else except its own authority to interpret Scripture and come to its own conclusions about what the Scriptures mean.
And that means every single storefront church, which has broken off from *another *church, which broke off from another church, which broke off from another church over an interpretation of Scripture or ecclesiological practice, ought to be counted as a denomination.
I think the way to repair this is to change the paradigm that was promoted by the Prot Ref, which is: I don’t need to defer to any authority save my own interpretation of the Bible.
Because every protestant religion teaches heresy and does not teach Christ’s Truth in its fullness. Christ wills unity and obedience.
Because of the theological implications. On one side, people believe that Christianity was freed from a bloated system of oppressive rules. I’ve heard it referred to as scraping barnacles from the hull of a ship. On the other side, people believe that billions of Christians were pulled away from Truth. If you care passionately about your faith, then it stands to reason you would fight just as passionately to have others understand your position.
You raise a good issue; I enjoy your posts.
The study of the Reformation is a fascinated subject that does receive considerable attention on CAF and there are many astute posters well-read and quite knowledgeable.
However, there are also several posters who seem to be in a time warp and appear to know nothing of the incredible ecumenical progress over the past century. And when provided accurate information from the Vatican and other reliable church sources some seem to try their best to discredit, trivialize and outright ignore the truth.
I have come to realize that ecumenical efforts are not a high priority for some.
Ecumenism is of great import.
It just ought not be wrought at the expense of truth.
Some people are promoting an illusory unity that is not yet achieved, but of which we all can hope.
Quite true…and part of the reason is that it is a very important aspect of our history that needs to be understood.
It’s like if hubby and I had a fight thirty years ago and he keeps bringing it up, even though he and I both agreed, then, that the issues were settled.
I’m sorry but this analogy doesn’t work because the issues have NOT been settled.
While many of the original causes of the reformation are no longer an issue, there are disagreements that came out of the reformation that remain issues.
jUst one would be the “Real Presence”.
Both Catholics and Protestants (uh, western, non-Catholic Christians) have moved along from what happened 500 years ago.
Yes and no…the movement that you refer to is actually a more recent development. Certainly prior to 1900 ones denomination defined them in many many ways and there was little interaction between them.
Why are people dealing with it as if we are frozen in time and nothing has happened since then?
I don’t think that this is the case.
As I stated earlier, many of the original issues have been someone resolved, but many of the things that came about because of the reformation still need to be discussed and resolved if we are to become, as Jesus prayed, one as He and the Father are one (John 17:20-21).
Just a couple of these issues would be 1) The actual canon of Scripture, 2) The Real presence in the Eucharist, 3) Private interpretation of Scripture, 4) The necessity and efficacy of works.
And - I need to point out that on each of these (except maybe the Canon of Scripture) there is disagreement even among the various protestant communities.
The experiment of Sola Scriptura, and the rejection of Church authority (clearly shown in Scripture) in favor of private interpretation has not resulted in unity but in confusion.
This is why the Protestant Reformation is still a subject that is worth discussing.
Hope this helps.
Just a thought here…
The OP asked a very good question that is not related to the 33,000 number. Let’s not get distracted by this. I would hate to see the thread get derailed.
When the Lutherans, Calvinists, Baptists, Pentecostals, Anglicans, etc. all close up shop and come home to Rome, that’s when it will cease to be a big deal. Until then it is a grave scandal against the Faith and must be dealt with. It is not only a significant part of Church History but a significant part of Western Civilization’s history as well.
Well, James, I have a different philosophy here on the CAFs. I believe that we are perfectly capable of having multiple discussions on a single thread. Sometimes the tributaries and secondary debates are of greater interest and provide more insight than the initial conversation.
I picture myself being on someone’s patio, having a cocktail while discussing religion. Lots of different conversations ensue from the spark of one question.
Nothing wrong with that, IMHO. In fact, I relish and enjoy it immensely. :shrug: