Why almost half the Catholics not prolife?

Your arguments are hollow. It’s illogical. All I keep hearing from you to be blunt, is , “you like brown, black, yellow and red folk but you don’t like babies what a hypocrite.” That’s not an argument, it’s a weird way of demonizing someone that ironically sounds if not racist ethnocentric.

Then you bring in pedophilia, and I cringe at thought but to blunt all you are saying is, “come on, man, you’re not pro life so of course you support pedophilia.” Again, not an argument and rather inappropriate. Again OP asked how a practicing Catholic can not live a life of sin and be pro choice. I answered with, when you live in America and where there is separation of Church and State, your vote is not based on one issue you have no control over but rather the Economic and Political considerations that come with that vote.

Again, if your choice to vote for Trump are political and economic. OK, that is authentic. We may not agree on that, but still I understand. But there is no moral imperative to vote for Trump. This isn’t Divine Right of Kings or Anglicanism, where the president is leader of my a Church.

I can tell you are a very good and Holy man and I highly respect you. Everyone else I have responded to I feel have been inauthentic and are pushing an agenda, but you are authentic and a good man. So, I’ll reply candidly with you why I take the position I do.

I’m not certain your age, but at thirty-eight I remember Bill Clinton reigning in Federal Welfare with the Federal Welfare Act. His concern at the time was inter-generational welfare recipients, so he essentially eliminated Federal Welfare. Here is a link to that:

So, again, traditionally Democrats were notable not for Welfare (as is discussed now in talk radio) but for working with Unions and the Working Class. I feel Obama was of that vain and I did vote for him twice. I’m proud of my vote as the 2008 recession was big, major and through Fiscal Policy and the way it was administered, Obama and the Republicans saved the Banking Industry, the Automotive Industry, and some manufacturing.

But, what I see right now is a decline in the country. I see two America’s, the America that is making it off of globalization and the America that is losing to globalization. Now, I don’t take the Democrats off the hook it is yet to be shown whether Biden will have a platform addressing the issue or at least recognizing the issue. I can go deeper into that but I’ll leave it at that. Once again, if Biden doesn’t have a platform much like Hillary didn’t have a platform I will vote State and Local.

But again, looking at the realities of things I don’t find Trump’s plans or policies feasible or beneficial. Again, I am not certain how these last years have turned our for Trump Supporters. I know we are now in the middle of a recession. Again, Trump may be elected again but it will be because he acknowledges the issue of outsourcing and oversees manufacturing along with energy policies that once sustained communities although bad for the environment. I just don’t think he has a solution. Again, isolationism in a globalized world may cause long-term problems. But again, I see a country in decline who may not have the political leadership to revitalize it. Only time will tell.

Now, here is where I will get real candid because you are a religious man. I’m sorry if this sounds conspiratorial, but I almost see Trump as the forerunner to the antichrist. I really mean that. He’s not particularly religious has sinned in life, lives a very hedonistic lifestyle but through his charm is able to court a large portion of people who are able to look past his sin even though they are otherwise religious. So, I’m dreadfully afraid to vote for him. And that’s the truth. Others look at the Pro-life and Pro-choice issue very theoretically. No, we have to be honest we are talking about voting for Trump in the next election and whether there is a religious mandate to vote for him. To me that sounds conniving and a move only an antichrist type figure would make.

Are you even listening to yourself? If anyone is making illogical arguments in this thread, it is you. You have not responded to my arguments, you have only responded to caricatures of my arguments and assigning motives to me. I’m not the one who keeps bringing up Trump and I’m not trying to convince you to vote for him.

As for pedophilia, I was responding to you saying you merely dislike abortion, as if it were a matter of personal taste. Some things in life are just morally wrong and should be opposed regardless of whether anyone likes it or not. Someone may “like” little kids very, very much, but I’m not just going to let them have at it because it would be imposing my beliefs on them.

Like it or not, every law we have is an imposition on someone else.

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Greetings,

I think it is a mistake to conflate the notions of religious “adherence” with belief. For instance, while most “Catholics” are pro-abortion, I, an “antitheist” am (in most cases) pro-life, because I have heard the arguments from BOTH sides, and have determined for myself what is morally correct (pro-life). I think if you gave most people 30 minutes, you could also convince them that the notion of value in human life is inconsistent with the notion of abortion in most circumstances.

Peace,

The Antitheist

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we are at an impasse, so thank you for the discussion.
until the next thread, good day and God Bless

Have you considered Brian Carroll of the American Solidarity Party?

It is obviously true that the practical options this year are voting for Trump or for whomever the Democrats nominate. That said, I didn’t ask which one you would choose. I responded to the argument you made to justify your support of (a candidate who supports) abortion. That is a moral concern, not a specifically political one.

I think, though, that most Catholics who support the abortion candidate do so for the same reason you do: their concern for the plethora of other political issues takes precedence in their minds over abortion. And, like you, they don’t really see this as a moral choice, or, rather they see the moral choice as being the one that to them is most beneficial to the country in general.

Thus resisting the moral evil of abortion becomes a secondary concern, and abortion itself is reduced in significance. No one would make the argument you made and allow someone to choose a truly evil act. It is only by believing that abortion is not all that bad can one conceivably suggest that it be permitted as a personal choice. It is only by deceiving yourself about the truly evil nature of abortion that you can take that position.

Would you still support the Democrat if he advocated for a “Purge Night” where for one night a year murder was “a personal choice”, or would even that not tip the scale to the Republican?

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Can you cite where Francis said “capital punishment is contrary to the Gospel”? I ask because it seems problematic; I know that’s not what the change to the catechism says. It would seem to be a serious problem to have something forbidden in the New Testament that was commanded in the Old.

The late great Pope St. John Paul II said it was no longer needed in modern society where criminals can be kept securely away from the public.

First, a judgment of what is or is not needed is just that: a judgment, an opinion. It is not a doctrine and we are not obliged to agree with it. Second, if your first statement is accurate then the position JPII expressed has been repudiated. If capital punishment is contrary to the gospel then it doesn’t matter whether criminals can be secured against society or not, and JPII would have been wrong to have acknowledged any exception.

All persons deserve the right to repent, even murderers.

Capital punishment does not deprive them of that right, nor does that possibility preclude its use.

“The fate of the wicked being open to conversion so long as they live does not preclude their being open also to the just punishment of death." (Aquinas SCG Bk III, ch 147)

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These are interesting times! I agree completely!
Keep the faith friend!

An entire article concerning this, with the direct quote. This topic is so well known, and has been discussed in such detail since it occurred. You can easily use the search function for these sorts of inquiry in the future. . . .

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Well I did expect a less combative response, as well as an actual response to my comments, and not just a put down of me personally. So let me ask something else: if capital punishment is indeed contrary to the Gospels does that mean it is intrinsically evil?

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It is not a put down to point out that your opinion is NOT equal to that of the clergy generally, nor the bishops of our country, nor the Supreme Pontiff on issues of faith and morals.

They enjoy special charisms to teach the faithful, that is how Christ set the Church up, and that is how it is, whether you agree or not.

Throughout this entire thread you have argued and argued against the bishops and their pro-life teachings. You have also argued against the teachings of the two popes I mentioned.

You ask for evidence of Francis saying that capital punishment is contrary to the Gospel. I searched for that issue (which you could have done yourself), provided a link, and yet you respond with a question clearly covered in the article. You either didn’t read the information you requested, or you didn’t understand it.

If you are not not willing to listen to the teaching office of the Church; from it’s highest levels, I cannot help you further. You are simply dug in that you are right, the Magisterium is wrong, and that’s it.

I do not wish to further upset you, so I bid you peace.

Deacon Christopher

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Mostly I ask questions, and make observations. I don’t usually offer personal opinions.

Throughout this entire thread you have argued and argued against the bishops and their pro-life teachings. You have also argued against the teachings of the two popes I mentioned.

Not really. I have raised concerns, and pointed out issues. As far as arguing against the teachings of popes, again, what I have asked for is clarification. Cardinal Dulles asserted that the teaching of JPII was prudential. I agree with him. Do you consider him to have “argued against the teaching” of the pope as well?

You ask for evidence of Francis saying that capital punishment is contrary to the Gospel. I searched for that issue (which you could have done yourself), provided a link, and yet you respond with a question clearly covered in the article. You either didn’t read the information you requested, or you didn’t understand it.

No, my follow up question absolutely was not covered, and why do you find it more reasonable to write all of this rather than give the one word answer the question called for?

If you are not not willing to listen to the teaching office of the Church; from it’s highest levels, I cannot help you further

I have asked for clarification. Why are you unwilling to provide it?

I do not wish to further upset you, so I bid you peace.

I’m not upset. I am disappointed you won’t discuss this with me.

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Sorry for being white. I forgot it was evil.

“With few exceptions 50 million babies in the US have needed to be murdered since 1973.”

Do you really believe that? I ask because that’s insane yet it’s what you said.

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Love you upant, thank you for the kind thoughts. Again, I have been reading all the comments and thinking about it. Here is what I did. I called into EWTN Open Lines Tuesday and talked to a priest who was answering questions about Pro-life and Pro-choice and why it is ESSENTIAL, that we Catholics are Pro-life and, and, and vote Pro-life.

Again, for all intensive purposes I am pro-Life, but have voted for Pro-Choice candidates. The last election I abstained from voting at the national level, instead only voting for local issues.

So, the call screener was very nice in guiding my question. Here was the question I asked the priest, “Father, thank you for taking my call, this is a conundrum for many Catholics who are otherwise Pro-life. Do we vote for a Pro-life candidate although we disagree in immigration and environment and it seems Pope Francis has disagreed as well or can we abstain.”

Well, the Father’s response was very enlightening and very loving. Pro-Life is the primary issue we Catholics vote on because imagine without the sanctity of life this then leads to Eugenics (Picking and choosing who is born) and Euthenasia. OK, the Father knew me in his heart and knew that would get to me. Then he went onto discuss how atheist societies like the Communist and Nazis have always taken to killing the unborn. Then he said, I should vote and I should not be derelict in my duty to vote.

OK, that’s it. I’m voting for Trump and I’ll always vote for the Pro-life candidate. Now, I have to wait for the Church to open up and confess my sins. It’s no longer a sin of ignorance. I know what I have to do.

Finally for anyone reading on the call screener did recommend a Catholic voting guide that is featured on EWTN. Here is the link:

https://www.ewtn.com/vote/

I recommend all Catholics go that site. It’s very enlightening. For the Catholic that is on the fence, yes, you are a good Catholic but you need to be a better one. Remember, sympathy, love and tolerance; don’t be of this world and fall into the habit of listening to the media. The further away you can get from common thought into Religious and Spiritual thought the more you realize that media in general is slated towards agendas. So, vote Pro-life. Vote for Trump. Pray for Trump and Trump Supporters. And Pray for discernment and repentance, there is no reason to belittle your fellow American. No. God, calls us to understand all people, especially when it feels like we are disagreeing. Strong emotions, means something you have to work on. Bonding with all people and praying for their needs is what God calls us to do.

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Doth mine :eyes: deceive me or have I just witnessed someone changing their mind on an important issue because of a discussion had on the Internet?!

This is truly a historic moment!!

It’s disappointing that the official Church isn’t behind the authentic prolife party in the American Solidarity Party. Imagine if every Christian in America got behind this party and swept it into power!

Would the church lose tax exempt status if it actually came out and endorsed a specific candidate?

With respect to voting, Tim Staples here at Catholic Answers had a good explanation yesterday on Catholic Answers Live. THIS link should take you to the correct time, but if not, it is at 1:10:42.

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