WHY are you NOT a Catholic?


#42

THANK YOU, I’m the OP

Allow me, as space permits, to address these concerns for you.

By the nature of the Mass I suppose you mean Catholic Beliefs in the Real Presence? Space is restricted here and you have asked multiple questions which I will address briefly. PLEASE let me know if you’d like greater detail on any of the issues

The NT, which is fully authored by Catholics has 5 different authors, 4 of whom gave there very life’s in BELIEF of this Dogma testify to its veracity. [God intervened to save John]

In the past I would copy and pastes these for you, BUT new space limits prohibit such:

Mt. 26: 26-28
Mk. 14: 22-24
Lk 22: 17:20
John 6: entire chapter but quoted here for space is verses 47:58

And Paul: 1st Cor. 11: 23-30; all of which are to be literally understood.

Did the Early Church know & accept these beliefs: At the time the bible was authored this “Mass” [a recent theological term] was called “THE BREAKING OF THE BREAD: Acts.2:42 “And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers”

Just as “The Way” morphed into Christians, & then Catholics around 110 AD, so to “Breaking of the Bread” became “The Mass”

This may come as a SHOCK to you; but all of Christianity which flows through the RCC which was the ONLY Christian Church, for the 1st 500 years, and realistically until the GREAT Eastern Schism of 1054, making it about 1,500 years OLDER than all Reformation churches and faiths. So without the RCC there would have been no Eastern Churches and no Protestant churches.

So the VERY foundation for all Christianity rest upon the belief in the Real Presence.
Catholic Catechism:

1324 The Eucharist is “the source and summit of the Christian life.” “The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For in the blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ himself, our Pasch.” [Sacrifice]

1407 The Eucharist is the heart and the summit of the Church’s life, for in it Christ associates his Church and all her members with his sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving offered once for all on the cross to his Father; by this sacrifice he pours out the graces of salvation on his Body which is the Church [singular …Mt 16:18]

By “Baptism Regeneration” I take it to mean the effects of Sacramental Baptism, which are many; but 2 of which is forgiveness of ALL sins and the debt all sins acquire; and becoming a marked Soul for Christ.

The post Reformation invention by Luther of Subsatory Salvation [Faith ALONE] denies of fails to comprehend the very natures of God & Sin, which makes that an impossibility. In effect dictating to God how he MUST save you YOUR way, rather than His.

I have responded to “intercessory prayer” on 2 different replies on this STRING. Please look for them and let me know if further information is needed.

SORRY about the briefness but space is inadequate for a fuller explaination.

God Bless you,
Patrick


#43

Let’s start with the fact that there is no such thing a Protestantism, at least in the sense that they share a common theology.
So, not all “throw out” the Blessed Virgin, the saints, the sacraments , etc.
if you are looking for what is attractive, you have to look at each tradition, individually. Lutherans are not the same as Baptists who are not the same as Presbyterians.
Lutherans have an incredible musical culture, along with a well defined doctrine. Anglicans hold a wonderful dedication to the liturgy. Just examples.


#44

I’m familiar with quite a few Protestant sects as my husband is Presbyterian, my extended family contains Baptists, some Methodists and non-denominational Christian churches, and I have spent a good bit of time in England where the Anglicans are prevalent. My cousin and her husband were Quakers for a while. I don’t know much about Lutherans as I don’t happen to have any in my family or among my friends.

From where I sit, all the Protestant churches seem to have eliminated something. Anglicans kept the most, but of course they don’t have the Pope and seem to lack the Mary devotions though they have some. The Baptists and Presbyterians seem to involve only sermons, Bible studies, and nice choirs. No saints, no Mary, no statues.


#45

I am from a Baptist church and I can confirm that all we have is sermons (sometimes lasting as long as 2 hours, which is really a long time when you’re sitting in an uncomfortable pew and the preacher is going full-volume, hurting yours ears), singing a few songs, and an “altar-call” where you get up, go to an altar (basically just a bench but for kneeling at and not for sitting), and pray. We have Sunday school on Sunday morning for about an hour, then we have the sermon, then we come back later in the day to hear another sermon that is usually an hour and a half long.

My own Baptist church only does communion once every year if we’re lucky. It’s been well over a year and I haven’t had communion. Of course, the Baptist church I attend obviously doesn’t have validly ordained priests to consecrate the hosts, and therefore the communion is not really valid as the Eucharist (and therefore I’m not really missing anything when we only do it every so often).

I hope to get to a Catholic parish soon and start the RCIA process, I hope there’s a parish near the college I will be attending.


#46

Not really applicable to me, as I am Catholic, but as someone on the inside looking out at non-Catholics, but at the same time observing my own surrounds in the Church, my conclusions is the reason is “other Catholics.” I have been through all through all the different stages of being Catholic, the “I go because my parents make me.” and “My friends are at CCD so I need to go.” and to crying my eyes out during adoration feeling God’s love present in the Eucharist. I’ve even tried the religious life briefly. But one thing I could never reconcile or justify to others…why are other Catholics so “tone deaf” to others. It’s not everyone, but as a congregation, it’s hard to not see. We have those who pass judgement, we have the charismatics who have cross the line to become zealots and not know it, you have the “buffet Catholics” who pick and choose what they like and ignore, or worse, disrespect the rest, and you have the indifferent who can care less about what happens around them.

The Catholic “faith” is rich and full of love and hope. The Catholic “society”, on the other hand, is what’s slowly causing the deterioration of the foundation. As a previous spiritual advisor once told me…“hate the sin, not the sinner”

P.S. Just to be clear, when I say “society”, I don’t necessarily mean the clergy. Although, I have known a few priests who can take some pointers on shepherding.


#47

I think our Orthodox friends would say you added some things.


#48

Probably not, we’ve really exhausted both opinions, and after what the priest said about Non-Catholics a few weeks ago, I told her that I’m done trying. My neighbor across the street is in the same situation as I and we talk a lot abbout it. He’s done teyi by with that place too.

Basically the wife and kids are staying where they are due to how close the church is to our house, that’s about it. She does not like how they view and treat non-Catholics at all, but she doesn’t have options really. I don’t say we as this church doesn’t reallyg see us as we, they rejected marrying us 14 years ago because…I’m not Catholic.

She may try switching to a country parish outside of town (we’ve left before) as the church in town has now changed from standard CCD on Wed to family faith formation and it’s taking a tole on my wife since all the religious education is falling on her now (since they really don’t want us non-Catholics involved unless we’re looking at conversion).


#49

Ask them for a list…either an essential or a non-essential list. As far as I can tell there is no list, because they cannot agree on that either.


#50

Well, if you’re going to give up, that is your option.

Btw, refusing to marry a Catholic with a non-Catholic and refusing non-Catholics to give Catholic education is not maltreatment, it’s good caution. Just so you know; there are actual reasons behind those, it’s not to make you feel bad for not being Catholic.


#51

Thank you for taking the time to respond.
Not all Protestants reject the Real Presence. The ‘finer details’ are where the differences arise for some and that also applies to the others I listed in my first post.


#52

And what if they did? The point is that I like having many different features and devotions to my faith.


#53

I can’t speak to the school issue, as that would depend a lot on things like the level of enrollment of Catholic students and how the school was being funded, but generally Catholic marriages are not refused just because one party is not Catholic. There are a lot of mixed marriages. If the non-Catholic party refuses to go through with some marriage prep or expresses some problem with an aspect of essential Church teaching like being open to and willing to have children, then the priest might refuse to go forward with the marriage, but simply not being a Catholic doesn’t usually do it. My husband is not Catholic and we had no problem getting married in the Church.

It may be that the particular church or priest in this case has a hangup, or there may be more to the story here.


#54

And that’s a fine point.


#55

Agreed, that is how I understand it and I’ve had a few people say that they didn’t even know that a priest could refuse marriage (espeicailly to another baptized Christian) just because one party isn’t Catholic. Honestly, this is the first time I’ve ever heard it called “good caution”.

This is kind of along the lines with my point, that the church (or priest…or posters here) sees it as “good caution” to protect my wife from marrying me or having me be any assistance in my children’s religious education just because I’m a baptized Christian from a different denomination is a big hang-up.
.

With all that said, I think this instance is the particular church and priest. I’ve noticed that much of the church leadership seems to be pretty, I don’t know how to say it…, anti NC (for lack of a better term). Then it just starts to trickle down from the top. What’s weird (from what I’m told on here) is that we’ve run into this at two different parishes.


#56

You DID Good on the indulgences, way to Go!

Catechesis [teaching] in the RCC post Vatican II was and is to a lesser degree now, very weak. Add to this the innovations of removal of Communion Rails, a new walk around altar, the priest now on “stage” facing the congregation for Mass, often hidden Tabernacles, Holy Communion in the hand [NOW licit and valid] and “Extraordinary[ LAY] Ministers” of the Eucharist [if just anyone CAN distribute God; CAN ITBREALLY BE GOD?], and there is very much to support your husbands skeptism.

It brings to mind what Peter & the Apostles said to Jesus when He asked THEM; “do you to wish to abandon Me?” Jn. 6: 67-70 “After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him. Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away? And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we have believed and have known, that thou art the Christ, the Son of God”

FROM OUR CATECHISM

1324 The Eucharist is “the source and summit of the Christian life.” “The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For in the blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ himself, our Pasch.”[Sacrifice]

1407 The Eucharist is the heart and the summit of the Church’s life, for in it Christ associates his Church and all her members with his sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving offered once for all on the cross to his Father; by this sacrifice he pours out the graces of salvation on his Body which is the Church.

So we do teach we Do believe and we do have Jesus Christ [GOD] Really, Truly and Substanually Present in our Midst. For anyone with FAITH Heb. 11:1 “Now faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not" and willing into the RCC, Christ One True Faith and Church CAN be intimately close to with and in GOD, while still here on earth.

HERE’S THE EVIDENCE [please look these up; space does not permit me to copy & paste them]

Mt. 26: 26-28
Mk. 14: 22-24
Lk 22: 17:20
1st. Cor 11:23-30
John 6: 47:58

Countless thousands have given their very lives as Martyrs, including 11 of the Apostles for belief of this FOUNDATIONAL Dogma.

DID THE EARLY CHURCH BELIEVE THIS? ABSOUTELY: Acts: 2:42 “And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles, and in the communication of the breaking of bread, [HOLY COMMUNION] and in prayers.”

So my friend, share all of this with your husband, who is missing VERY MUCH. And Pray much for his conversion.

God Bless you,
Patrick


#57

My DEAR friend in Christ; [I’m the OP] I LOVE your POST & Questions. SADLY space limitations makes responding to them very difficult. So here is my plan. I have numbered your major concerns 1, 2, 3, 4 and will responds to each in a separate POSY REPLY

**REPLY tlanman87 **

#Q1 How is Salvation attained?

Sola Fide is a recent Luther invention of the post reformation period, that claims that Christ has already done all the work for salvation and one needs merely to acknowledge Him as their “Lord & Savior.”

  1. This theory fails on several points. [Even one POST is insufficient to cover this]

It denies a right understanding of both God’s Nature and the nature of sin

GOD can be defined as ALL GOOD THINGS PERFECTED

We then ask: Are being just and fair “good things”? YES

So then we can know that God MUST BE fair and just

Gen. 1:26-27 tells us that God freely choose to Create humanity [alone] in His Image. Jn 4:23-24 then teaches “that Image is ‘SPIRIT.’ “

Genesis 1 is fulfilled because God GIFTS every human Soul with a mind, intellect and freewill, which like GOD are Spirit and immortal attributes, and attaches them prenatally to every human Soul.

Isa. 43:7 & 21 then explains WHY GOD choose to do this: “everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made. & the people whom I formed for myself that THEY MIGHT [CAN freely choose to] declare my praise”

So this is teaching that LIFE IS TO BE a prolonged-GOD TEST [Proving our “worthiness” to merit our salvation time & time again. With consistency choosing the good over evil. Isa. 55: 6-8 & NT testimony: “Take UP YOUR cross and Follow Me [MY Personal example of suffering] taught 5 times. … Christ Passion makes POSSIBLE humanities REDEMTION while making humanities salvation POSSIBLE by OUR on-going-freewill choices.

“REDEMPTION” does NOT mean salvation

Redemption means that for ALL of humanity; the gate of heaven [to which He gave the KEY to Peter] was NOW reopened after having been closed by the Sin of Adam & Eve [Original Sin] [Imputed by God to all humanity, thus the GOD TEST.

END REPLY pt 1 a


#58

REPLY Pt 1 b

Salvation is a life-long process of making good choices and sincerely repenting of our bad choices GODS WAY: See Exo. 28: 1, Lev. 5:16-18 & 1 Jn 1: 6-7, 1 Jn 5:16-17 & John 20:19-23**

Sola Fide & sin portends [hypothetically] that one merely goes to a “priest” [in NT-SELF] and admits their sins, and all is well and good. … Salvation “merited”.

This post Reformation invention denies Gods RIGHT to do it His WAY…The GOD-Life Test. And the Grace He OFFERS through proper use of HIS Seven Sacraments. Notably here Eucharist [HIMSELF] and Sacramental Confession. WHY do you suppose they are in the bible if God did not intend that THEY be USED?

Then there is the issue of the TEMPORAL PUNISHMENT that All sins accrue directly by GOD, who alone demand and monitors the repayment of same; as Souls MUST be Perfect in order to enter into the Beatific Vision.

Lev.22:2]” And when any one offers a sacrifice of peace offerings to the LORD, to fulfil a vow or as a freewill offering, from the herd or from the flock, to be accepted it must be perfect; there shall be no blemish in it”

Matt.5: 4]” You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect”

Jas.2: 14 – 20 “What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe – and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?

In the RCC, “WORKS” = Charity, and while we CANNOT work our way into heaven; we CAN”T get there without Charity. Salvation IS in a theological sense “Our Own Doing” in so far as eternity reflects OUR Personal life choices FED by God’s graces, either accepted or rejected. WE decide for ourselves where We will spend eternity; Jesus dare I say “only” affirms our decision, hence permitting US to use His GIFTS of mind, intellect and FREEWILL.

GBY, Patrick


#59

#Q2 Purgatory:

1st 2 Mac. 12 40-45 “Then under the tunic of every one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was why these men had fallen. So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; and they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. … He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead that they might be delivered from their sin”

THAT SIN OFFERING IS THE theological PRECUSOR FOR PRAYING FOR THE DEAD

Rom.6: 14-15 “For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!”
Paul speaks here speaks of OT ignorance verses NT Grace and possible RIGHT Understanding. Sins were NOW to actually be forgiven Jn 20:19-23, not merely covered over Lev. 5:16-18 …New times New expectations.

The RCC is Organic and Pragmatic

The last 2 verses in Jn 20 & 21 as you suspect confirms that NOT everything was intended [or even possible to put into one book as evidenced in the thousand + years Yahweh invested in teaching His CHOSEN People Exo. 6-7 [singular], which Jesus extends to “MY CHURCH” singular Mt 16:18; knowing full well that His One True Church & Faith was to be Organic and grow in WISDON, not only in size; fully guided by Him Jn 17: 18 & the HS Jn 14:26

I’ve read Plato & see what you’re speaking of. BUT my FRIEND, that is not the origin. The Doctrine of Purgatory which like topic #1 stems from a lack of understanding of God’s & sins very natures.

1 Tim 2: 3-4 “This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the TRUTH [singular per defined issue]

God makes this Possible by committing to OFFER every human Soul sufficient Grace that they CAN know Him. But grace can be refused, misdirected or only partially accepted,

END PT 2A


#60

STRAT REPLY PT 2B

Purgatory exist because of God who desires that ALL humanity be saved,
BUT in Divine Justice conditions it on true and complete emulation of Himself [PERFECTION] which is only possible through Sacramental graces, charity & Indulgences [a separate topic]

Lev.22: 21 “And when any one offers a sacrifice of peace offerings to the LORD, to fulfill a vow or as a freewill offering, from the herd or from the flock, to be accepted it must be perfect; there shall be no blemish in it.

Rev. 21: 27 “But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

Mt. 5: 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

Matt.5: 48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

Heb. 2: 10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.

Because GOD is PERFECT, so too must EVERY Soul be either perfect upon death, or able to be perfected after death In order to enter into the Beatific Vision.

Then the misunderstanding of sins nature comes into play. GOD so detest our sins that HE applies a penalty for them, EVEN Sacramentally Confessed sand Forgiven sins. … Theologians have termed this: THE TEMPORAL PUNISHEMNT DUE TO SINS [can be GOOGLED] …

To attain Heaven a Soul must die without any unconfessed / unforgiven GODS WAY Mortal sins: 1: Jn 5:16-17 & Jn 20:1-23, and having repaid in FULL all of the TP our life’s sins have accrued. This DEBT can be paid for by charity, by suffering OFFERED UP, and through Indulgences. BUT as GOD applies the penalty, ONLY GOD knows to what degree our efforts [SOMETIMES wrongly understood as Catholic-WORKS] are accepted by HIM. So here is where the power & authority of the Key’s Mt 10: 1-2, Mt 16:18-19; Jn 20:19-23, Jn 17:17-20 each of which is to be taken literally. So the Church empowered & COMMANDED to Save as many Souls as is possible; following Her Mission, offers Sacramental Baptism, the Eucharist, Sacramental Confession & the Last Rites; & Indulgences, each of which is intended to is a direct, specific and signifient way to have a potential role is SAVING SOULS and perfecting them so they CAN go to heaven.

I pray my friend you find some of this useful. Please let ME know if you’d like to carry on a further discussion on any of this.

God Bless you, Patrick


#61

REPLY tlanman87

REPLY to Q# [3] Mariology, veneration of saints, [idols]

This is perhaps the easiest of your issues to address:

Yahweh [GOD] Himself Commanded Moses to build for HIM Idols

Exod.25: 18, 20 And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. [20] The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be

Num.21: 8-9 And the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.” So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.

So then the LESSON for us is that it is NOT the OBJECT THAT IS SINFUL; BUT the INTENDED USE OF THAT OBJECT THAT DETERMINES ITS MERIT.

Mary was [is] GOD”S choice out of literally BILLIONS of other women.

By FAR the most common Marian prayer is the Hail Mary; repeated 50 times on every Rosary. This prayer is solidly grounded in the Bible:

Hail Mary, [Lk. 1:28]
Full of Grace [Lk. 1:28]
The Lord is with thee [Lk 1:27]
Blessed are you among all women [Lk 1:42]
And Blessed in the fruit of your womb: Jesus [Lk. 1;42]
Holy Mary [Lk.1: 28]
Mother of God 1:35
Pray for us sinners [our catholic petition]
Now and at the hour of our death
Amen” [I BELIEVE!]

Romans 12: 2 “Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. “

Hebrews 5: 9 “and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,”

Lk 1: 46-50 “And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name. And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear “[AWE of ] him”

Mary like most mothers ADDS to Her Son’s Glory, , not competing in any way with Him, but leading Souls to Him through Her intercessions.

Mary & the Saints are prayed “TO” BUT it is far more correct to understand that “Through” them is more accurate as ALL Catholic Prayers are intended to end with God.

This is a highly recommended practice not a Doctrine of the RCC because Mary & the Saints accept our petitions; then add their own on top of them and present them personally to our LORD on our behalf, making our prayers more efficaous.

I suggest you check this site out: https://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya1.htm

God Bless you
Patrick


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