WHY are you NOT a Catholic?


#102

Dear FRIEND,

I’m the OP

It is critically important for you to make an appointment to speak privately with a Catholic Priest about all that has been going on. YOU’LL be very glad that you did!

TRY to pray every day for Jesus to help you! And I’ll pray for you too

God Bless you,
Patrick


#103

So dipping my toe is shark infested waters, as an atheist and former catholic, I’ll throw some of my reasons.

  1. Magic. When non-christians use magic, it’s the devil. When christians use magic, it’s a miracle. Take ressurecting the dead. When Jesus does it, it’s an incredible and wonderful act of god. When it’s the Egyptians, it’s either just a myth or the devil.

  2. Demons. There are no monsters under the bed. Most kids learn this at around 5 or 6. Seeing grown adults being afraid of spooky ghosts is embarrassing. Possessions are laughably false, or the result of drugs/mental illness. Exorcists are hustlers taking advantage of people with problems that require a medical professional.

  3. God. The Christian god is the most nebulous and vague concept of a deity I’ve ever seen. His character swings wildly between stories. Sometimes he’s patient to an absurd degree and sometimes he wipes out civilizations without warning. His power starts out rather minor and limited in the Old Testament and it grows until he’s #1 perfect Mary Sue by the New Testament.

  4. Heaven/ hell. Heaven and hell have also gone through tons of changes over the centuries. Heaven is the most simplistic and yet contradictory afterlife I’ve ever seen. Hell ain’t much better. People can’t even agree on what it is. Is it fire? Personal torture? “Separation from god”? 2000 years and the interpretations are so still so vague.

I got more, but I’m doing this on my phone and it’s getting excruciating. One more quick thing; there is absolutely no way to actually go to these until it’s too late. Unfalsifyability is not a feature, it’s a bug


#104

Your understanding of things is incredibly shallow.

I can’t help but think the vast majority of people who leave the Church do so because they are poorly catechized and don’t understand her teachings.

Your post further confirms that suspicion to me.


#105

Pat,
This is one topic that I struggle to engage because I know how central the Papacy is to Catholics. So I won’t engage long here.
While there is no doubt that St Peter is the leader of the apostles, there is little if any evidence of the kind of supremacy now afforded the Pope. The early councils do not show it. Even Catholics will talk about the development of this doctrine.

Jon


#106

I’m writing from my phone. I’m obviously simplifying things, I’m just throwing out some of the concepts I take issue with. And saying “you just don’t understand” isn’t a response.


#107

[QUOTE]"
So dipping my toe is shark infested waters, as an atheist and former catholic, I’ll throw some of my reasons[/QUOTE].

[QUOTE]**“Magic. When non-christians use magic, it’s the devil. When christians use magic, it’s a miracle. Take resurrecting the dead. When Jesus does it, it’s an incredible and wonderful act of god. When it’s the Egyptians, it’s either just a myth or the devi”**l.[/QUOTE]

My friend, I appreciate your candor, and will reply in kind as the OP

The issue you’re unaware of struggling with in a WORD is TRUTH which logically can only be singular per defined issue.

The Norm for describing any religious practice is termed FAITH "Now faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not."
Hebrews 11:]

[QUOTE]Demons. There are no monsters under the bed. Most kids learn this at around 5 or 6. Seeing grown adults being afraid of spooky ghosts is embarrassing. Possessions are laughably false, or the result of drugs/mental illness. Exorcists are hustlers taking advantage of people with problems that require a medical profession[/QUOTE]

You’re either uninformed or wishing this be true

[QUOTE]God. The Christian god is the most nebulous and vague concept of a deity I’ve ever seen. His character swings wildly between stories. Sometimes he’s patient to an absurd degree and sometimes he wipes out civilizations without warning. His power starts out rather minor and limited in the Old Testament and it grows until he’s #1 perfect Mary Sue by the New Testament.[/QUOTE]

Friend were YOU aware that EVERY-TIME YOU look into a mirror YOU see GOD?
Genesis 1:26-27 compared to John 4:23-24 and exactly WHY and How that is?

[QUOTE]Heaven/ hell. Heaven and hell have also gone through tons of changes over the centuries. Heaven is the most simplistic and yet contradictory afterlife I’ve ever seen. Hell ain’t much better. People can’t even agree on what it is. Is it fire? Personal torture? “Separation from god”? 2000 years and the interpretations are so still so vague.[/QUOTE]

SPACE is GREATLY restricted here on CAF, if you’d care to know about this PLEASE PM me [the OP] PJM

[QUOTE]I got more, but I’m doing this on my phone and it’s getting excruciating. One more quick thing; there is absolutely no way to actually go to these until it’s too late. Unfalsifyability is not a feature, it’s a bug
[/QUOTE]


#108

Thanks Jon,

And that is because the Church is Organic

Read Mt 10:1-8 and compare it to Mt 28:18-20. So it is Christ HIMSELF that instituted as an absolute necessity Papal [a theological term, NOT used BUT fully comprehended by the early Fathers including some Easter Fathers. … GOOGLE Father on the Papacy as I suggested eariler.

I CAN supply [if space allowed] “50 Peter First” which too CAN be GOOGLED.

The Councils didn’t show it BECAUSE it was an accepted FACT

Catholic “talk about” the development of the TERM< not do much the position

God Bless you Jon,

Pat.


#109

Thanks a lot for your kind reply. I have and the priest was made too uncomfortable about the things I told him (especially when other personalities came out which happens more under stressful situations like revealing painful secrets) and he admitted he didn’t understand it or how to deal with it. Another one from a different part of the state I met once was more helpful but I found it extremely difficult at best to follow some of his advice. The first one did his best I’m sure but was at times insensitive or moody (and I get he’s human too) but it was traumatic at times to finally talk a bit about those things and to get less than sensitive or helpful replies. I honestly don’t ever want to talk to a priest about anything I don’t strictly have to anymore, because I can be spread only so thin before I crack and say screw it all. God forbid. Anyway priests don’t have the time or inclination if they do to sit around and listen to someone like me and the advice is always the same: say your Rosary, St. Michael prayer, etc. when I can pray sometimes I do but sometimes I don’t even for some reason even though it’s supposed to help.


#110

By the way thanks for your prayers, I really appreciate that and sorry I forgot to mention it in my last post


#111
  1. Magic is the use of the supernatural. For God, the supernatural to us is natural to Him. It’s not magic when it’s God’s power, because it is natural to God. Magic would be like trying to do something supernatural by your own power or by a power not from God, since that power wouldn’t naturally be able to do what we typically consider supernatural.

  2. Demons do not equate with the monster under the bed. We don’t picture demons as these big ugly creatures that hide from people to scare them. Rather, demons walk among us, and we have no reason to fear them if we are walking the right path, because God is infinitely more powerful than all angels (the fallen ones as well). The common representation of demons, and of lots of other things for that matter, are crude and false.

  3. So you’re under the impression that the God of Christianity is inconsistent, arbitrary, etc. and I see where such a concern would come from. But I don’t think it really has any ground once you dig deeper. The God of the Old Testament is said to be much more angry and unforgiving than the God of the New Testament, for example. But an easy rebuttal would be the story of Jonah (it’s a very short book, read it if you haven’t. Only four chapters). The God of the Old and New Testaments aren’t different. It’s that God has revealed Himself over time, and the cultures of the times also play a big role in how God is commonly interpreted.

  4. Do people regularly go to Heaven/Hell/Purgatory and come back? No. It’s not like we can take a piece of Heaven and put it on a slide to examine under a microscope to come to definitive answers. Is there confusion about the afterlife? Certainly. Because people don’t normally experience it and come back to tell the tale. And if they do, they often have differing stories because of their different perceptions (much like how different witnesses to a crime will give different accounts, not because the actual event was different for each of them, but because certain things stood out more to them, etc.) But I’d be interested in knowing why you think Heaven and Hell are contradictory in themselves.


#112

So you do believe in magic(k), then? And you take issue with the disapproval of the use of it? I’m not really sure what you’re saying, but if as an atheist you believe in magic(k) that would be quite unusual.


#113

Where did you get the commentary for Hebrews 6 ?

When a person reviews commentaries . that one depicting a catholic version is not available.

Your commentary “appears” to be out if context. Used just to prove your point of view.


#114

I’m the OP [73 with tri focals and two finger typist
,
MEANT SEARCHING

Hope that clarifies it for you:smiley:

God Bless you,
Patrick


#115

http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id250.html
EDITED TO FIT one Post SPACE by PJM

Ver. 4. *8 &c. it is impossible,[1] &c. This is an obscure place, differently expounded, which shows how rash it is for the ignorant to pretend to understand the holy Scriptures. Many understand these words, it is impossible, &c. of the sacrament of penance, or of returning to God by a profitable repentance, especially after such heinous sins as an apostacy from the true faith. But then we must take the word impossible, to imply no more than a thing that is very hard to be done, or that seldom happens … it is certain that it is never impossible for the greatest sinners to repent by the assistance which God offers them, who has also left the power to his ministers to forgive in his name the greatest sins.

But others … . For baptism in the first ages was called the sacrament of illumination. See St. Denis de cælesti Hierar. chap. iv.; St. Gregory of Nazianzus; &c. The following words also agree with baptism, when they are said to have been made partakers of the Holy Ghost; to have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come; all which signify the interior graces, the miraculous gifts, and power of working miracles, which they who were baptized frequently received in those days. —

They cannot be renewed again unto penance. That is, they cannot be renewed again by baptism, which is also called a renovation. (Titus iii. 5.) Their sins may indeed be forgiven them in the sacrament of penance, but this is not a renovation like that in baptism, in which both the guilt, and all pain due to past sins, is remitted; whereas in the sacrament of penance, though the guilt, and the eternal punishments due to sins be remitted, yet many times, temporal punishments, to be undergone either in this world or the next, still remain due to such as have been great sinners,

to them who by relapsing into the same sins, have crucified again to themselves the Son of God, making a mockery of him; i.e. who, insensible of the favours received, have ungratefully renewed sin; to take away which Christ suffered, was mocked, crucified, &c. (Witham) — … ,versions, which are stained more or less by the preconceived sentiments of the translators. — For the earth that drinketh in the rain, &c. He bringeth this comparison, to give them a horror of abusing God’s graces and favours, and of making themselves guilty of hell fire. (Witham)
PLEASE SEE THE SITE FOR FULL DETAILS

GBY


#116

As the OP, I assure you [I co-taught RCIA for 3 years] I LOVE New Catholics and anyone interested in learning GOD’s Truths:smiley:

God Bless you, PLEASE stick around and let me know if I can answer any questions for YOU,

Patrick


#117

Dear friend in Christ,

HOW can it be that Christ is not calling you [everyone] to his logically, morally and theologically singular truths per defined issue?

I do not mean this as a challenge to your faith directly; but as a prompt [GOD WILLING] to ask how can their more than a single truth per define d issue?

The Bible clearly teaches:

One true God

Who can and does therefore does have just One true Faith set

In and through just His One Founded 2,000 years ago Church, so that every reference to “church” in the bible is referencing today’s RCC" Mt 16:18 “MY Church” is notably singular.

And sense ALL churches are identified by their freely chosen set of faith beliefs; one can know that the bible then articulates Catholic Faith beliefs.

God Bless you,

Prahy very much
Patrick


#118

[QUOTE] =“gazelam, post:80, topic:454880”]
Several reasons…

Infant baptism

inherited sin

praying in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, instead of in the name of Jesus Christ only

belief in creation ex-nihilo

the doctrine of the Trinity

choice of bread or wine at communion

no apostles or prophets

… to name a few reasons
[/quote]

Thanks for sharing!

Allow me as SPACE permits to try at least to respond to your concerns
Several reasons…

1. Infant baptism

John 3:5 & Mt 28:19

[5] Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless [EVERY] one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God

[19] Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing [ALL OF] them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

BOTH passages do not limit or exclude infants. Were that God’s intent, surely it would have been clearly stated, as Sacramental Baptism is the first and essential step to salvation.

2. inherited sin
As space is severely restricted PLEASE REREAD Genesis Chpt 2: 21-24 & all of chpt 3; especially 11-23; then NOTE please that the punishments inflicted by a JST God extended all of humanity for all time. Then note that the reasons for tese punishments flow directly & exclusively from Their ORIGINIAL SIN, which too is inherited by ALL humanity, who like A & E are created in GOD”S very Image Gen 1: 26-27

  1. praying in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, instead of in the name of Jesus Christ only

This is grounded in 2 facts:
Mt 16:19 ABOVE & the fact that GOD is a TRINITY:

Lk 3: 21-22 “Now it came to pass, when all the people were baptized, that JESUS [GOD THE SON] also being baptized and praying, heaven was opened; And the HOLY GHOST [GOD THE HS] descended in a bodily shape, as a dove upon him; and a voice came from heaven: Thou art my beloved Son; [GOD THE FATHER] in thee I am well pleased”

  1. belief in creation ex-nihilo
    OK, so where did the “something come from”… are you suggesting GOD is not ALL Powerful” The size and complexity of the Universe and humanity itself, with the Natural and Moral Laws lend POERFUL evidence of otherwise. For example Read gen 1:26-27 & compare it to John 4: 23-24 & explain HOW & Why that is possible [I do know the answers]

5. the doctrine of the Trinity
See #3 & Isa.55: 8 to 9 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Thus theology is replete throughout the NT
It is presumptuous my FRIEND to presume that man [any human] can fully and logically understand the MIND of GOD.

due to limited space relies 6,7 & 8 are on the NEXT POST


#119

HERE ARE MY RELIES TO POINTS 6, 7 & 8

6. choice of bread or wine at communion
I’m not exactly sure of your concern here: The Catholic Dogma of the Real Presence: is Testified too by 5 different NT Authors [all Catholic]
Mt. 26: 26-28
Mk. 14: 22-24
Lk 22: 17:20
John 6: 47-58
1st Cor. 11:23-30

ALL of whom BOTH Bread and Wine. BUT the power of the KEYS in Mt 16:18-19 grants BROAD powers of unlimited Governance and specifically the RIGHT to make & void rules and regulations [practices]… the CHURCH choose to discontinue the mandated use of both Consecrated Bread & Wine due to abuses; the POST Vatican II Church then opted to reinstate the OPTIONAL practice of BOTH Form; BUT HOLDING that “THE ENIRE CHRIST; BODY, BLOOD, SOUL & DIVINTY, ARE CONTAINED IN BOTH [EITHER] SPECIES AND EVEY PART OF EACH SPECIS.

7. no apostles or prophets
Friend I have NOT the slightest idea what you mean here. The RCC Has direct Apostolic- succession. There is NO Christ COMMAND for either Apostles or Prophets in the NT, so I fail to see your concern?

  1. So my friend, what ELSE concerns you?
    God Bless, Patrick

#120

6.1. choice of bread or wine at communion
I’m not exactly sure of your concern here: The Catholic Dogma of the Real Presence: is Testified too by 5 different NT Authors [all Catholic]
Mt. 26: 26-28
Mk. 14: 22-24
Lk 22: 17:20
John 6: 47-58
1st Cor. 11:23-30

ALL of whom BOTH Bread and Wine. BUT the power of the KEYS in Mt 16:18-19 grants BROAD powers of unlimited Governance and specifically the RIGHT to make & void rules and regulations [practices]… the CHURCH choose to discontinue the mandated use of both Consecrated Bread & Wine due to abuses; the POST Vatican II Church then opted to reinstate the OPTIONAL practice of BOTH Form; BUT HOLDING that “THE ENIRE CHRIST; BODY, BLOOD, SOUL & DIVINTY, ARE CONTAINED IN BOTH [EITHER] SPECIES AND EVEY PART OF EACH SPECIS.

7 no apostles or prophets
Friend I have NOT the slightest idea what you mean here. The RCC Has direct Apostolic- succession. There is NO Christ COMMAND for either Apostles or Prophets in the NT, so I fail to see your concern?

8… to name a few reasons
So my friend, what ELSE concerns you?

God Bless, Patrick


#121

I believe Christ is calling everyone to his logically, morally and theologically singular truths per defined issue, as you have often phrased it.

However, I disagree that the RCC has a monopoly on that truth.

Please don’t take that now to mean I hate your church, far from it. Have you read any of the headlines in the news as it pertains to the Church? The CC is in a lot of turmoil. Now is not the time for Catholics to bury their head in the sand. There seems to be a defining chapter unfolding.

Thank you for finally clarifying that "searing " meant searching. Now your statement makes some sense.


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