Why be grateful to God

I’m curious why we owe God anything. I can kind of understand the reasoning behind the answer “because he made is” but… We never chose to exist or come into this world. It’s not really our choice to be alive most of the time. Life is full of suffering and often burdensome and who else can you blame but God who made everything.

More than that though, I don’t understand why we owe God anything or should even be grateful that he died on the cross. Its not my fault I’m born with original Sin and need saving . God allowed that to be the case and if he allows that, if he is not evil, he must make it possible for us to not go to hell forever. It would be evil to create humans knowing they would be condemned to hell forever with no chance of being happy. That seems like common sense and no special gift or goodness on his part. Then the fact he chose a painful way to go… Well that was entirely his choice and I should not owe God more because he chose a more painful way to “save us”. I don’t get why we act like we need so much saving because we are sinners as if it’s all or fault. While we have some.contrpl per our actions we are inclined to sin because God made with the inclination to sin. Nor does it make sense to me to be constantly blaming that on Adam and Eve. Yes they sinned, but it was God who passed that down to us. It was God who allowed them to be tempted even though he knew they would fall. It almost seems selfish on God’s part to seek out a more painful death to win over more gratitude and love as if his sacrifice was so much bigger and we needed that.

Basically why do we owe God for saving us if he made us need saving

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I don’t tie it up with I owe God (sounds very guilt ridden)
However, an attitude of gratitude has personal benefits.

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God made us. If not for him you wouldn’t even exist to be sitting here calling him “selfish”.

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What about someone who wishes they didn’t exist

I don’t think you are quite asking the right question. I can empathize with your conundrum, I think a lot of other people can too. Some people can FEEL that saving grace from God, and they can understand OWING God their allegiance while others may not feel that.

Life is full of suffering because of the fall.

He did, and here is where I would like to approach your conundrum. God did not make us for sin or death; He created us so that He could love us forever, and that we could love him back. We are not meant to be sinners. It’s not our fault, but it’s who we are anyway, and if we want to get out we have to love. The act of salvation gave us a way back to that state of being, and it is in loving God and following His commandments that we are more human, more like we were before the fall. So I don’t view it as “owing God” anything, but instead “how can I be more myself?” The answer is by loving God as much as possible.

If this is you, I am very sorry and I pray you find healing, if not through the church, than through a qualified medical professional :pray:

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Be grateful that you can have eternal life if you choose to.

It is not me right now. I have certainly felt that way in periods of depression but I am enjoying life right now and what it has to offer me. I know many others feel that way though

This seems similar to the anti-natalism movement as exemplified by this guy who is suing his parents for creating him without his consent:

This kind of attitude, and a similar attitude toward God, errs by neglecting to acknowledge the existence of objective goods. Life is a good thing, even if you don’t like it–even if suffering is involved. God, and one’s parents, do provide you with what is needed for you to live, to know God, etc.

The natural end of this attitude is the eradication of the human race–and really all life and even existence–which itself is a sign that it is disordered.

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As for original sin, imagine if, before you were born, your parents–who had nothing prior–were given a few million dollars by a philanthropic old man. Unfortunately, they squandered it all so you did not inherit those gifts.

The good news is, the old man’s son has been given everything by the old man and sent to share it with whoever of your parent’s children asks. Even if you make bad choices and squander them again, he will still replenish your account if you express regret and an intention to try and do better.

Rather than unjust, it seems extremely just, merciful and generous to me!

Our parents still give us the good of natural life and God offers all the even greater good of supernatural life (he just does not necessarily give it to all at the same time as the parable of the worker’s in the vineyard shows).

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You ask very valid questions, based on what I believe are valid premises. You won’t get answers here, though, that will help you. After all, being a Catholic sort of means one doesn’t agree with the premises you lay out. Maybe taking some philosophy classes could help you (?).

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It was no ifs or buts, God made all of us that we all need salvation, naturally follows, if God is just and loving, His DUTY OF CARE IS to save everyone, WITHOUT any ifs or buts.

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FOR THE FOLLOWING REASONS WE OWE GOD FOR OUR EVERYTHING

God created us and in this world God provides us all the graces necessary for our salvation and He makes us to be well informed, joyful saints in Heaven and he takes us home to Heaven.

1 Corinthians 2:9 New International Version (NIV)

However, as it is written:
What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—

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WE HAVE NOTHING WITHOUT GOD GIVEN TO US AND INFUSED INTO US

1 Corinthians 4:7 For who makes you different from anyone else?
What do you have that you did not receive?
And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?

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THE WAY GOD MAKES US THAT WE ARE ABLE TO AND WE ALL LOVE HIM

CCC 298 Since God could create everything out of nothing, he can also, through the Holy Spirit, give spiritual life to sinners by creating a pure heart in them.
And since God was able to make light shine in darkness by his Word, he can also give the light of faith to those who do not yet know him.
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Ez.36:26-27; I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you;
I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
And I will put my Spirit in you and I cause you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

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CCCS 1990-1991; “Justification is also our acceptance of God’s righteousness. In this gift, faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL are given to us.
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CCCS 1996-1998; Justification comes from grace (God’s free and undeserved help) and is given to us to respond to his call.

This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.” – THERE IS NO ifs or buts.
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John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.
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Fallen man cannot redeem himself, (De fide). – It is God’s responsibility to save ALL OF US.
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John 6:44; No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.

While St. Thomas says that man turns to God by his own free will, he explains that free-will can only be turn to God, when God turns it.
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Acts 13:48; … as many as had been appointed for eternal life believed. – Not even one former unjust, idolaters, drunkards, etc. said no to God’s salvation.
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St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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CCC 2022; The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
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This is above the way God PREPARES/ CAUSES the unjust, idolaters, drunkards, etc. to say YES to His gift of salvation.
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God bless

Oh boy, this is a lot to unravel. You ask a lot of multi-faceted questions that require many multi-faceted answers. For brevity, I’m only going to address one of those questions - why did Jesus’ death have to be painful?

First, we need to understand the nature of the fall. It wasn’t merely eating a fruit, and it wasn’t merely disobedience. Whenever one creature becomes aware of itself as one being and of God as another, it has the choice of either making God or itself the center of the universe. The sin of Adam and Eve was that they choose to try to make themselves the center of their universe instead of God. We do something similar. Regardless of if we chose Original Sin or not, each one of us, through our sins and vices, seeks to make our will, if not above God’s, at least separate from his will.

Now, this next part is important. God’s will (or we can call it goodness’ will, since in the end we mean the same thing) is one thing, and our wills can either conform to goodness, or turn away from it. Now many atheists will argue that Christian morality is mercenary. That the only reason we do good things is to earn Heaven, and the only reason we do bad things is to avoid Hell. Now, in on sense I disagree with them, but in another, they have a point. If you do good, are you doing it because it makes you feel good, or because it is good? If it is not the second, then your reason for doing it is at least partly mercenary. But then how can we know if someone is ever motivated to do good for goodness’ sake? Easy. Make ‘doing good’ painful - set it against their will. Then, and only then, can you be confident that you are acting from pure motives.

Now what does this have to do with Jesus’ Passion? Why did he have to die from crucifixion? Because, this, in a way, was the example that we were to follow. Jesus sacrificed his human will to avoid pain to the Divine will that he die - literally give up his will for the Father’s will. This is the exact opposite of Adam’s fall, and something that is in some way communicated to each believer. Jesus’ total renunciation of his will, his total joining of his will to his Fathers’, despite pain and all human tendency to the contrary, is something that must in some way be mimicked by all of us, in varying degrees. This, I think, is why Jesus’ sacrifice had to be painful.

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Ah… There’s your error…

You know not God nor His purpose and you blame God for what ails this world

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If you don’t, then by the rules He set up, you will suffer eternal torment…or so it is said by some

Yes… He said, Do Not Murder One Another…

You get shot by one who refuses to listen to the Wisdom of Our Father?
It hurts… .or worse

You wanna be an Eternal Liar and Murder and Refuse His Kingdom?

You have Free Will to go that route.

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Jesus’ passion only makes sense if you already subscribe to some degree culturally to the tenets of Christianity, for much of the world it is totally meaningless and the ideas behind are simply another theological view of the world. Just as Hinduism which I didn’t grow with up is to a degree alien to me or Buddhism.

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Jews who witnessed and accepted Jesus with Faith - are the very First Christians

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A minority of all Jews, also the New Testament is essentially reportage long after the events it describes. It can be characterised as pious stories designed to bolster a claim.

Yes… Only a relative handful realized and accepted Jesus - Messiah of All… Son of God

From Nostre Aetate

  1. As Holy Scripture testifies, Jerusalem did not recognize the time of her visitation,
    nor did the Jews in large number, accept the Gospel; indeed not a few opposed its spreading.

  2. True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ;

I am afraid I do not view the Gospels as particularly convincing as source material. I’ll refrain from further comment on the matter as these are issues for me to work out personally ultimately.

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