Catholics believe that homosexual sex is a sin, but we also believe that we all struggle with sin. When I decided to convert to the Catholic faith there were some points of view and sinful habits that weren’t compatible with being a Catholic. I gave up those points of view that weren’t Catholic. I still struggle with some of my old sinful habits, but I don’t blame the Church for my sins.
If liberals don’t agree with what the Catholic Church teaches there are other religions that do agree with them. The door to the Catholic Church is open for those who want to enter and for those who want to leave.
All the protests from the left show that they have a bad case of the forbidden fruit syndrome. Contraception, abortion, and acceptance of the “gay lifestyle” is available everywhere with the only exception being in Catholic institutions. But gay activists want to force everyone to agree with them and tell them that what they are doing is a right.
You have what many, including myself, lack: wisdom, humility and a malleable spirit. I’ve often wondered about that, too. If, for instance, you’re a Catholic nun and you think abortion is a right, contraception is okay, the real presence is not really a “real” presence, then why stay a nun when you could become a female pastor in a denomination that agrees with all your views. As for the gay activists, they want to rally everyone’s approval, for some reason they want unanimity and not just a majority, perhaps they don’t like to have outside/external voices echoing what their conscience is whispering to them. Perhaps deep down inside people know that they know that they know that the Catholic Church is THE CHurch and that to get an approval from it/her would almost m,ean to get an approval from God. My take.
The gays want their lifestyle to be seen as morally right/neutral. Sadly, this is actually happening at very fast rate. Too many people are rapidly accepting homosexuality and rejecting the Church. And they say that WE are wrong for accepting the Church’s teaching about homosexuality.
What makes liberals even more wrong is that they are extreme hipocrites. They cry that conservatives should accept other points of view besides their own, yet they cry whenever somebody believes something contrary to THEIR beliefs.
Livingwordunityand yourself have raised some good points and observations.
One of the penalties of compromising with our christian life is what St.John of The Cross observed—“the mind is darkened and the will is weakened” hence that saying “none so blind as those that cannot see”!
I suppose the statements just depends on the “target” group that Livingwordunity is labeling as “liberals”.I just recently attended a catholic run social action awareness lunch time talk in my city.When introducing the speaker ,the gentleman said that this person regards himself as a “progressive” catholic.I thought at the time that this sort of jargon creates division within The Catholic Church.A sort of "I am for Apollos,I am for Paul"type of statement which St.Paul roundly condemned.Either a person is for Christ or against Christ,for after all Jesus’s identity is with The Catholic Church.In his retort to Saul,Jesus replied that “you are persecuting Me”!
I regard The Catholic Church as founded on The Rock of St.Peter;so if a person says that they are catholic,it is a given that this person believes all that the Catholic Church believes and teaches.Those who do not obey the Churches teachings,whether they be doctrinal theological or moral teachings,then they put themselves outside the Church.
In the times past,priests like Father Martin Luther,a catholic Augustinian monk left the Catholic Church and took those with similar views to form Protestant churches.However these times,there are many catholics who have lost their way or ill informed are like you describe;they disobey and protest but still stay as nominal catholics.They have not formally left the Church, but for all intents and purposes are really protestants in their beliefs.
I suppose Christ warned us that “in the last days” there will be this battle from within His Church.The Evil One is always behind the persecution from within and from the secular world.I believe that if satan wins the "gay rights push for"marriage within the laws of any nation;It will mean the end of our catholic right to free speech and the right for catholics to follow their own beliefs within that society.
In the end,it will be persons like yourselves who will be the means to renew The Church in holiness from within.The ideal would be for the disobedient catholics, to have a change of mind & heart and to contemplate the Face of Christ–and not spit & mock it. The means to this end is as Our Lady Of Fatima in 1917 requested ,prayer(-especially The Rosary) & penance(our duties according to the state of life).
This was true in the case of the gays, lesbians and bisexuals I worked with in the 1970s and 1980s. Sex was a private matter and remained private, even though they said they were gay. We got along fine.
Recently, especially now, there is the mean, confrontational, in your face attitude. That didn’t happen in the past. No one was telling me what sexual practices I should accept. No one was putting same-sex marriage on the ballot either.
Why does anyone need my approval, by ballot, for how they’re living? Who was stopping them from living how they wanted then or now?
The increase of the pro-gay marriage media, corporations and politicians all being pressured to say gay marriage is OK. That did not happen in the past.
It was a sin then and now, and God knows I’m a sinner, but instead of engaging God and his grace and infinite mercy - like all of us sinners should be doing, it’s become “No. You’re wrong. You’re going to accept it and you are going to get used to it as normal or neutral at worst.”
It’s gay marriage or nothing, or at least, that’s the current position.
It must be very difficult for someone whose sexual identity is so far removed from a normative, healthy state. I can empathize with someone’s desperate desire to have society recognize and accept their sexual predilections. Sexuality is so central to one’s identity, that I imagine it must be terribly painful and confusing to be isolated by one’s sexual desires.
I think that this need is what drives the relentless assaults on traditional approaches to family and society. Homosexuality is disordered, no matter how we attempt to turn nature on its head to accept it. I can easily see someone afflicted with the disorder desiring greater inclusion in the world around him.
The problem is that this sort of acceptance requires the destruction of family and society; it must be fought.
You know how when you were coming into your own as a teenager, you’d sometimes make a risque decision and then ask your parents about it after the fact? You were looking for approval, and would be elated if they nodded, incredibly defensive if they shook their heads.
It’s kinda like that. Those living the homosexual lifestyle want society to pat them on the back and say “OF COURSE that’s okay!” (Hence the demand to legalize same-sex so-called marriage). But the Church is standing there in the background with Her arms folded, shaking Her head.
I don’t believe this to be the case, but would say, rather, that homosexual activists want to force acceptance of homosexual behavior a perfectly normal. Most homosexual advocates are intelligent enough to realize that if everyone became homosexual, humanity would last only one more generation.
The way I see it is that moral liberals view conservative moral views the way the average person views racism. In their sad and morally warped minds, conservative moral views are so noxious that, even if we are not pushing them, our mere acceptance of them makes us ignorant, hateful, and in need of change. Therefore many opt to go on the attack.
My impression is that they don’t really care what anyone else thinks, until others try to prevent them from getting the rights which they believe are due to them. The Catholic Church, the Mormon Church, plus a variety of other denominations oppose what they want. So, there is conflict to be resolved in the legislatures and the courts.
Homosexism is the idea that the homosexual lifestyle is equal to if not superior to the heterosexual lifestyle. Acceptance is one of the issues involved, yes. But, they want to go way beyond acceptance. They want to convert us!
The problem with what I see from the left, including the Catholic left, is that part of being on the left is the desire and almost compulsion to impose on others. This is not universal, many on the left do practice “live and let live” but they are a distinct minority.
Take a look at what the left believes. Communism, socialism imposes on one group so another group benefits. “Speech codes” on campus means that only a leftist viewpoint is allowed on campus, anything else is considered offensive and forbidden. “Hate speech” laws are enforced as to mean that if you disagree with a leftist perspective, you’re hateful and illegal. The burdens are always imposed on one group so someone else can benefit. And the burdened group is always the one who disagrees with the left.
And this is why they MUST attack the Church. They MUST impose their beliefs on the Catholic Church. They cannot stand it that someone has a different opinion. So instead of “live and let live” they seek to impose on others yet again.
How do you figure? If we were to “live and let live” then we would have to allow homosexuals to marry within the secular culture. We are not doing that. So it’s hypocritical to expect homosexual activists to “live and let live” when we refuse to do likewise.
No-one is forcing gay activists to be Catholic. If gay activists wish to be left alone by the Catholic Church, they can keep their business in the bedroom and stop telling those of us who don’t condone the lifestyle to stop pushing their agendas down our throats.
The problem is that this supposed “right” to marriage is an imposition on everyone but the two homosexuals (if we’re still confining ourselves to two–as long as we’re burning down the definition of marriage, let’s go all the way to the ground) getting “married”.
My right to free speech, for example, requires nothing from anyone else. I can go out in public and make my position on anything clear. I can print up flyers to distribute. No one can prevent me from making my case, but no one has to listen.
In the case of gay “marriage”, it’s about how the rest of the world must view and treat their union legally. I have homosexual coworkers who have been calling themselves married for years. Neither the Church nor the state has stepped in to demand that they desist from cohabitating, engaging in…whatever, or insisting that they are married. This current movement is about forcing society, not to tolerate, but to accept. We are now called upon to accept equivalency between homosexual behavior and normal family life.
So, yeah, the Catholic Church (present company excluded, perhaps) will always be the main moral bulwark against the razing of the family, and it will unavoidably be the main target of any such movement, since the Holy Spirit doesn’t put moral law up to a popular vote. But the idea that homosexuals have a right to be acknowledged as a married couple is absurd. Secular society may allow people to be treated as married in any permutation or combination of number, gender, age, or species it likes. But forcing people to accept these unions is an infringement on everyone’s rights.
I know gay people who would say the exact same thing. “Why can’t the Church just let us have our civil marriages? We aren’t Catholic, we don’t want to be Catholic and we don’t care what Catholics believe!”
Being gay and Catholic means I had to make certain choices and I made them willingly because remaining Catholic was more important to me than anything else. Even when I spent time away from Mass-I still remained committed to those choices. Every person who commits to the Catholic Church makes choices like that-and it is through the grace of God that we can stay committed to them. There are many things that are legal in the civil arena that are not acceptable to us as Catholics and we choose not to do them.
From my perspective, I think it would be a better strategy to forget about the political/legal angle and do for others what was done for me. Good Catholics showed me the love of Jesus and when I finally understood the depth of His love-it was no longer a question of how I needed to change my life.
Sometimes I think we don’t trust God enough and try too hard to do His job through worldly means. God can and wants to change people’s lives, but they need to know that in order to accept His grace. The only way they are going to know that is if those of us who have already experienced it show them.